When too much?

[nakedcrayon]

I grew up in the 80's playing youth sports and some HS as well. I got yelled at by my coaches to be motivated but I am also male.

I took over a team whose coach was unable to finish the season because of medical issues. Went from finishing early with 18s to coaching 14s. I kept the same system, made very small adjustments to lineup because kids freaked out when I did anything different. (I started one set in rotation 3 instead of rotation 1 and we had to take a time out after 3 points because they were confused)

The former coach gave me some great info about the collective group and kids which was spot on. Not true leader on team, mentally weaker as collective group, always looking at coach after every mistake. They said I had much harder strenuous practices than previous coach during the one month I coached.

Fast forward to this weekend. After a loss, one kid comes up to me and says that they need to be yelled at more, because that is what their old coach did and JH coach does as well. I had asked the kids earlier and they said the coaches yelled but were demeaning as well. That is not my style, I can get on them, be stern, even get angry at times when I first started coaching I found out slowly it generally it has no effect on girls. Guys can be yelled at and hate half the team but play to win and then hate each other later on. Girls work better IMO when culture is more friendly. (this is not always the case, more in generalities)

Cross over match at night. We lose first set again in two and are down in second set. I begrudgingly took the advice and screamed at them collectively, got angry, banged clipboard into chair. They responded and came back won the first two point set with me as coach then won first third set as well. (parents said they hadn't won much before in tight situations). Parents came up saying thank you, it was what they needed. Wasn't happy with myself that night in hotel room, but hey results matter I kept saying.

Day two lose again in a two point match and lose the third set as well (setter injury, out for rest of match didn't help). Final match of tourney and season they get down 17-6 have used both of my time outs and decided to be that coach again. Yelled even louder to where probably three courts adjacent turned around, they responded by having my second biggest comeback ever in club VB for myself as a coach winning 27-25 and killing it in the final set to win the final match of the season. The win should have felt really good to me and them but after the initial euphoria it was like nothing happened. The victory was hollow all the way home from the tourney. The kids learned yelling is the answer to motivation which may produce results but at what costs...

I guess this is more of a vent, but I don't like myself right now....14 club non bid division at regionals playing for like somewhere in 25-25th place....is it truly worth it....I cant say it is

[vbgirls2]

I can see where you may feel like you don't like yourself right now, doing something that is not generally your coaching style, however there is a difference between yelling at kids and being mean, demeaning and personal. It doesn't sound like you were any of those. I am not opposed to coaches yelling. Sometimes they need to, to be heard ( loud environment), sometimes they need to; to make a point. Sometimes it is because kids are not listening, distracted, screwing around - "being kids" when you want them to focus, be engaged and take things more seriously.

You may have gotten louder, but it doesn't sound like you went overboard. Don't beat yourself up. You are not like this all the time, there is a time and place for everything. There is obviously a middle ground here that you will have to find. And yelling for the sake of yelling is also obviously not the answer.

[Wolfgang]

I really enjoyed your post. It reminded me a bit of my experiences as a youth playing team sports. One thing I found odd was that when I got into yelling fights -- and sometimes, actual fistfights -- with some of my teammates, I may have hated them at the moment, but those fights created a strange bond with them. I actually grew to like and respect them a lot more. In all instances, the fights were clear cut winners, no draws. One was actually pummeling the other.

I wonder, though, if the fights were draws, would the mutual love and respect still be there? My guess is no. It's like a wolf (or dog) pack. When the hierarchy is clear, everyone stays in line. When there's uncertainty as to who the top dog is, there will be constant battles.

Anyway, guys...

[mclvbdad]

I don't think yelling is that big of an issue. To me its more about what is being said. I've been around some coaches that are quiet and calm and completely demoralize girls by tearing them down, calling out individual faults and accusing individuals of losing a set or match. I think most girls, especially younger players, want to know that the coach cares as much about the team and them individually as about winning. Yelling to encourage, motivate and show that you care about what is happening on the court works for some players. But i do know there are exceptions and cases where any raised voice or stern word will cause a girl to fall apart. I think the bottom line is that you have to know your players individually and the collectively and challenge them in the way they will respond.

Some of the worst team dynamics I have ever been around was where a coach was perceived by the players to be disinterested, passive and to not care about what was happening on court. The players were just going through the motions all season and never performed to their potential.

[Deleted]

If it is not you to yell, don't do it. Kids can sense insincerity a long way's away.
I think the issue is coming in late to a club season as a substitute coach.
I'd chalk it up as a learning lesson--and use it in the future with your teams, explain the situation and why you coach the way you do.

[nakedcrayon]

I can yell, and older kids take it better than younger kids. Sometimes it works. I just usually don't go off like I did. I think I went the extreme route and it worked. The next day I go the extreme route and it worked. I, in the words of Billy Joel, don't know why I go to extremes. I think it also had a little to do with defense they ran and inattention to game plan. I simplified the game plan drastically then I normally would and they would not collectively follow it. They ran rotational which I haven't run in years. They let balls drop due to not wanting to be the one to mess up and get yelled at by previous coach so neither one would move to a seam ball. They dive for balls when a run thru would work and wonder why based upon the change in platform adjustment the ball went the direction it did. It looks like effort but not really. I even joked in set two of final match when we were going to win after a girl dove late and poorly that if we had any practices left we would do run thrus without knee pads to stay on feet....the horror look was priceless for a brief moment

[mclvbdad]

"Secret to passing is the shuffle step." "Make friends with the floor!"

[cobras3300]

I think yelling & anger are cop outs for adults who lack tools or experience to help kids find passion, focus and confidence. I think the main questions are "what is the goal" and "what is the desired result". The only result of anger / yelling (imo) is teaching kids (and their parents) that this is the appropriate response in life to get others to be successful. I applaud your question and resulting feelings --- now I think you need to have a conversation with them to discuss why they played well after yelling and work together to find a better catalyst for that success in the future. It's there - it's just sometimes difficult for 14-year old girls to think of anything but the easy answer of "yell at us and we'll do well." It's sad that girls think this is the answer (and we hear this all the time within our club as well).

[nakedcrayon]

Unfortunately season is over...I think it would have been entirely different had I started season with them...terminology, style of practice, expectations, etc.

What scares me is they asked to be yelled at, and I did and it worked. That is what eventually sends them to another passion than sports. (and I don't think the parents are a bunch of yellers and screamers either from the month I was around them. I think it is what they expect based upon the past.

It was a great comeback...amazing...but seemed hollow to them and to me in the end.

I am not a rah rah coach. I am the style of coach that no matter how good I still find things needing correction. I get super pumped on good plays, smart decisions that work and long rallies that they win. They see that but they also saw a side that I don't like at all

[vbgirls2]

again a mix of the two is probably best. But I do agree with mclvbdad about what is said is more important than how loud it is said. And cobras about yelling being a cop-out when you don't have the know how or skill to correct properly. What you did see was that you got their attention and they saw that you really cared. (maybe they thought you just got stuck with the team after the other coach left and didn't care). It is also true that younger athletes do not respond as well to this type of coaching style, especially girls- they take it very personally.

[volleylover26]

Sounds to me like the girls responded to seeing you 'really care' about how they performed. The energy provided by the 'yelling' sent a message that you really believed they could win. I think girls sometimes see too laid back as not caring or not really believing in them (if the coach doesn't even believe we can win, why should we?). Since you can't yell with pleasure when they're losing to inject some energy, the only choice is yelling with some authority! If you tried the calm 'okay ladies, let's go' and that didn't produce the energy the team needed, it sounds to me like you gave them what they needed...a vote of confidence in a loud and convincing voice that you believed they could win. And they did!

[bigfan]

May 2, 2016 11:12:26 GMT -5 nakedcrayon said:

I am not a rah rah coach. I am the style of coach that no matter how good I still find things needing correction. I get super pumped on good plays, smart decisions that work and long rallies that they win. They see that but they also saw a side that I don't like at all

Wake Forest is looking for a coach.

[vbkid111]

May 2, 2016 11:48:37 GMT -5 volleylover26 said:

Sounds to me like the girls responded to seeing you 'really care' about how they performed. The energy provided by the 'yelling' sent a message that you really believed they could win. I think girls sometimes see too laid back as not caring or not really believing in them (if the coach doesn't even believe we can win, why should we?). Since you can't yell with pleasure when they're losing to inject some energy, the only choice is yelling with some authority! If you tried the calm 'okay ladies, let's go' and that didn't produce the energy the team needed, it sounds to me like you gave them what they needed...a vote of confidence in a loud and convincing voice that you believed they could win. And they did!

Agreed. Raising the level of concern rarely brings poor results. Usually just the opposite. Sounds like you were getting one message across--that competing really hard for every point is why they are playing a competitive sport in the first place and that, regardless of the win/lose outcome, if you are not willing to do that then you shouldn't be there. Sounds like they got the message loud and clear. Why would you ever feel bad about that? Good job.

[fieldsoffire]

May 2, 2016 11:12:26 GMT -5 nakedcrayon said:

Unfortunately season is over...I think it would have been entirely different had I started season with them...terminology, style of practice, expectations, etc.

What scares me is they asked to be yelled at, and I did and it worked. That is what eventually sends them to another passion than sports. (and I don't think the parents are a bunch of yellers and screamers either from the month I was around them. I think it is what they expect based upon the past.

It was a great comeback...amazing...but seemed hollow to them and to me in the end.

I am not a rah rah coach. I am the style of coach that no matter how good I still find things needing correction. I get super pumped on good plays, smart decisions that work and long rallies that they win. They see that but they also saw a side that I don't like at all

"What scares me is they asked to be yelled at, and I did and it worked
.." 

Actually it didn't work.. a player's performance will always regress to the mean regardless of what we do as coaches... In other words each athlete plays at a specific level (the mean). Sometimes they play great (playing above and beyond their ability) and sometimes they play bad (playing worse than their ability). So when a player is playing bad coaches tend to yell and get mad at them and eventually the player's performance improves. This gives the coach the false idea that their yelling had a positive effect and resulted in the underperforming player improving their performance. On the flip side when a player significantly outperforms their normal ability coaches tend to react positively by high fiving, clapping, backslapping and generally positive feedback to the player. However the player is always unable to sustain this level of performance and will always revert back to their mean. The real key is figuring out each player's mean. When they are underperforming - take action X and when they are overperforming, don't expect it to last.

Also the mean is not a "fixed" variable. It can move up and it can move down but generally is a long term result, not a short term one. So players with the right coaching, time and practice can get better and significantly improve their mean. Players that receive poor, inadequate or faulty instruction can actually see their mean decrease.

Now as for action "X" referenced above in my opinion, motivation is best acquired by getting players to want to play hard and improve for you and this is best accomplished in a relationship where there is mutual respect and trust, not blackmail, threats, swearing and grudges (FYI not saying that is what you did at all so please don't misinterpret
I think in your case your energy had a positive effect which resulted in improved performance for the whole team.

I am not necessarily totally against yelling per se. I think what is really important is what you say and how you say it. Tone and body language has as much as affect on how you are perceived as the content of your words and the volume of your voice.

I applaud you for your honesty and your ability to question your behavior. In my opinion it shows you really care about your players and this is what makes for great coaches!

[vbkid111]

May 2, 2016 12:34:41 GMT -5 fieldsoffire said:

May 2, 2016 11:12:26 GMT -5 nakedcrayon said:

Unfortunately season is over...I think it would have been entirely different had I started season with them...terminology, style of practice, expectations, etc.

What scares me is they asked to be yelled at, and I did and it worked. That is what eventually sends them to another passion than sports. (and I don't think the parents are a bunch of yellers and screamers either from the month I was around them. I think it is what they expect based upon the past.

It was a great comeback...amazing...but seemed hollow to them and to me in the end.

I am not a rah rah coach. I am the style of coach that no matter how good I still find things needing correction. I get super pumped on good plays, smart decisions that work and long rallies that they win. They see that but they also saw a side that I don't like at all

"What scares me is they asked to be yelled at, and I did and it worked
.." 

Actually it didn't work.. a player's performance will always regress to the mean regardless of what we do as coaches... In other words each athlete plays at a specific level (the mean). Sometimes they play great (playing above and beyond their ability) and sometimes they play bad (playing worse than their ability). So when a player is playing bad coaches tend to yell and get mad at them and eventually the player's performance improves. This gives the coach the false idea that their yelling had a positive effect and resulted in the underperforming player improving their performance. On the flip side when a player significantly outperforms their normal ability coaches tend to react positively by high fiving, clapping, backslapping and generally positive feedback to the player. However the player is always unable to sustain this level of performance and will always revert back to their mean. The real key is figuring out each player's mean. When they are underperforming - take action X and when they are overperforming, don't expect it to last.

Also the mean is not a "fixed" variable. It can move up and it can move down but generally is a long term result, not a short term one. So players with the right coaching, time and practice can get better and significantly improve their mean. Players that receive poor, inadequate or faulty instruction can actually see their mean decrease.

Now as for action "X" referenced above in my opinion, motivation is best acquired by getting players to want to play hard and improve for you and this is best accomplished in a relationship where there is mutual respect and trust, not blackmail, threats, swearing and grudges (FYI not saying that is what you did at all so please don't misinterpret
I think in your case your energy had a positive effect which resulted in improved performance for the whole team.

I am not necessarily totally against yelling per se. I think what is really important is what you say and how you say it. Tone and body language has as much as affect on how you are perceived as the content of your words and the volume of your voice.

I applaud you for your honesty and your ability to question your behavior. In my opinion it shows you really care about your players and this is what makes for great coaches!

"...this is best accomplished in a relationship where there is mutual respect and trust, not blackmail, threats, swearing and grudges (FYI not saying that is what you did at all so please don't misinterpret " If you didn't mean to suggest that the above negatives were connected with the OP's behavior, then why did you even mention them. They are completely irrelevant to the matter at hand. Unfortunately, the term "yelling" has become unfairly synonymous with all of the above and more--and that's ridiculous. It's so obvious what the kids were "asking" for is to simply be pushed, to be demanded of. It's what, for right or wrong, many competitive athletes still equate with "yelling." Of course, any coach worth his/her salt will need more than that one tool in the tool belt to maintain a level of commitment and drive in the athletes. But here it seems the message was taken to heart. Good.