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Post by trainermch on Jun 6, 2017 8:46:42 GMT -5
The comments below the article/plea for signatures included this:
"I'm signing because my mom was physically, emotionally, and mentally abused by rick butler for years as a teenager. Sexual abuse is not okay and it is absolutely ridiculous that he is still couching young girls! -Hannah Tuzi"
Sexual abuse affects generations. He is trash. I signed.
P.S. It would be one case for the psychology and history books were a sexual abuser to be rehabilitated.
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Post by vbnerd on Jun 6, 2017 9:01:53 GMT -5
OK, leaving aside the specific Rick Butler issue because I don't really know anything about it, do you think that there can be any rehabilitation for sex offenders? Or are they to be forever banned from everything no matter how long they go without re-offending? 1. You have over 31,000 posts on a volleyball forum and you don't know anything about the Rick Butler situation? That's like having 100k posts on a PETA forum and not knowing anything about "the Michael Vick situation" 2. Yes, I do think sex offenders can be rehabilitated but that would require acknowledgement, apologizing, counseling & various other steps towards forgiveness and rehabilitation. RB has never done any of this and even though an Illinois judge called him a sexual predator because of the testimony of THREE victims all claiming to be under 18 and as young as 15. He has never denied sleeping with all 3 of them multiple times but claims that they were over 18 and therefore there was nothing wrong with it. Even though he was clearly an authority figure. 1. I think I've read nearly everything and I still don't know what to think. Why did the Bremner's respond to the allegations of their older daughter by sending their younger daughter to play for him? Why did USAV ban him, but the State of Illinois saw fit to allow him to adopt? Why is there a statute of limitations on this anyway? I envy your clarity but I just can't get there. 2. So if he doesn't say he's sorry, he's still a threat to his players? Reading the bio of the player it says she attended Western Michigan in 1985. So we are talking more than 30 years ago. The last allegation is like 28 years ago, right? If you want to ban him in 1985 I'm with you. But as far as I know, this isn't the burning building anymore. Go and google "coach sleeping with student" and "coach molesting player" and there is no shortage of RECENT stories about events in gymnastics, little league, youth football, basketball, etc and even just teachers. This is absolutely an issue that we as a nation/society are not dealing with effectively. We can and must to do better. I'm just not sure how fixating on the events of the early 1980's is the best use of the time dedicated to this cause.
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Post by cyfan1965 on Jun 6, 2017 9:36:05 GMT -5
New people coming into volleyball for the first time don't know. Multiple people we know who are sending their daughters to his camps in a month had no idea. It's like the most well known open secret on the planet.
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Post by azvb on Jun 6, 2017 10:19:43 GMT -5
IMO: 1. There should be no statute of limitations on sexual abuse of a child. Even IF the girls were 18, he still abused his position of authority. 2. A lifetime ban should mean for the remainder of ones life.
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Post by c4ndlelight on Jun 6, 2017 10:25:08 GMT -5
1. You have over 31,000 posts on a volleyball forum and you don't know anything about the Rick Butler situation? That's like having 100k posts on a PETA forum and not knowing anything about "the Michael Vick situation" 2. Yes, I do think sex offenders can be rehabilitated but that would require acknowledgement, apologizing, counseling & various other steps towards forgiveness and rehabilitation. RB has never done any of this and even though an Illinois judge called him a sexual predator because of the testimony of THREE victims all claiming to be under 18 and as young as 15. He has never denied sleeping with all 3 of them multiple times but claims that they were over 18 and therefore there was nothing wrong with it. Even though he was clearly an authority figure. 1. I think I've read nearly everything and I still don't know what to think. Why did the Bremner's respond to the allegations of their older daughter by sending their younger daughter to play for him? Why did USAV ban him, but the State of Illinois saw fit to allow him to adopt? Why is there a statute of limitations on this anyway? I envy your clarity but I just can't get there. 2. So if he doesn't say he's sorry, he's still a threat to his players? Reading the bio of the player it says she attended Western Michigan in 1985. So we are talking more than 30 years ago. The last allegation is like 28 years ago, right? If you want to ban him in 1985 I'm with you. But as far as I know, this isn't the burning building anymore. Go and google "coach sleeping with student" and "coach molesting player" and there is no shortage of RECENT stories about events in gymnastics, little league, youth football, basketball, etc and even just teachers. This is absolutely an issue that we as a nation/society are not dealing with effectively. We can and must to do better. I'm just not sure how fixating on the events of the early 1980's is the best use of the time dedicated to this cause. He admitted to sleeping with all three young women, and one of them was able to produce love letters written by him while she was still underage (seriously, in a pre-smartphone/e-mail era what more of a smoking gun could you ask for?). Yet we should believe that he "waited" until they were 18 to consummate, despite him having much easier access to these women before they turned 18 than after they went off to college?
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Post by ProfessorPlum on Jun 6, 2017 10:42:22 GMT -5
1. I think I've read nearly everything and I still don't know what to think. Why did the Bremner's respond to the allegations of their older daughter by sending their younger daughter to play for him? Why did USAV ban him, but the State of Illinois saw fit to allow him to adopt? Why is there a statute of limitations on this anyway? I envy your clarity but I just can't get there. 2. So if he doesn't say he's sorry, he's still a threat to his players? Reading the bio of the player it says she attended Western Michigan in 1985. So we are talking more than 30 years ago. The last allegation is like 28 years ago, right? If you want to ban him in 1985 I'm with you. But as far as I know, this isn't the burning building anymore. Go and google "coach sleeping with student" and "coach molesting player" and there is no shortage of RECENT stories about events in gymnastics, little league, youth football, basketball, etc and even just teachers. This is absolutely an issue that we as a nation/society are not dealing with effectively. We can and must to do better. I'm just not sure how fixating on the events of the early 1980's is the best use of the time dedicated to this cause. He admitted to sleeping with all three young women, and one of them was able to produce love letters written by him while she was still underage (seriously, in a pre-smartphone/e-mail era what more of a smoking gun could you ask for?). Yet we should believe that he "waited" until they were 18 to consummate, despite him having much easier access to these women before they turned 18 than after they went off to college? 1. He has never sued the victims for libel, slander or defemation! Despite spending hundreds of thousands suing USAV and AAU about their rules. 2. 3 humans can not possibly collaborate a lie for over 25 years in complete unison for absolutely no financial reward. They have never asked for one. 3. A retired Illinois Supreme Court Judge (arbitrator) heard both sides of the story and called him a sexual predator That gets me there! And AAU has a long record of being scum! How's that internal report coming AAU? Updated story: www.google.com/amp/www.firstcoastnews.com/amp/news/local/florida/out-of-bounds-a-local-volleyball-coachs-fight-to-get-accused-abuser-banned-from-coaching-1/439259833
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Post by c4ndlelight on Jun 6, 2017 10:51:28 GMT -5
He admitted to sleeping with all three young women, and one of them was able to produce love letters written by him while she was still underage (seriously, in a pre-smartphone/e-mail era what more of a smoking gun could you ask for?). Yet we should believe that he "waited" until they were 18 to consummate, despite him having much easier access to these women before they turned 18 than after they went off to college? 1. He has never sued the victims for libel, slander or defemation! Despite spending hundreds of thousands suing USAV and AAU about their rules. 2. 3 humans can not possibly collaborate a lie for over 25 years in complete unison for absolutely no financial reward. They have never asked for one. 3. A retired Illinois Supreme Court Judge (arbitrator) heard both sides of the story and called him a sexual predator That gets me there! And AAU has a long record of being scum! How's that internal report coming AAU? Updated story: www.google.com/amp/www.firstcoastnews.com/amp/news/local/florida/out-of-bounds-a-local-volleyball-coachs-fight-to-get-accused-abuser-banned-from-coaching-1/439259833Really, he wants us to believe that he merely SERIALLY groomed underage girls over whom he had an overwhelming amount of authority and influence to have sex with them shortly after they turned 18. Seriously, that's the best case scenario?!?!?!?!?!
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Post by Phaedrus on Jun 6, 2017 12:07:44 GMT -5
1. You have over 31,000 posts on a volleyball forum and you don't know anything about the Rick Butler situation? That's like having 100k posts on a PETA forum and not knowing anything about "the Michael Vick situation" 2. Yes, I do think sex offenders can be rehabilitated but that would require acknowledgement, apologizing, counseling & various other steps towards forgiveness and rehabilitation. RB has never done any of this and even though an Illinois judge called him a sexual predator because of the testimony of THREE victims all claiming to be under 18 and as young as 15. He has never denied sleeping with all 3 of them multiple times but claims that they were over 18 and therefore there was nothing wrong with it. Even though he was clearly an authority figure. 1. I think I've read nearly everything and I still don't know what to think. Why did the Bremner's respond to the allegations of their older daughter by sending their younger daughter to play for him? Why did USAV ban him, but the State of Illinois saw fit to allow him to adopt? Why is there a statute of limitations on this anyway? I envy your clarity but I just can't get there. 2. So if he doesn't say he's sorry, he's still a threat to his players? Reading the bio of the player it says she attended Western Michigan in 1985. So we are talking more than 30 years ago. The last allegation is like 28 years ago, right? If you want to ban him in 1985 I'm with you. But as far as I know, this isn't the burning building anymore. Go and google "coach sleeping with student" and "coach molesting player" and there is no shortage of RECENT stories about events in gymnastics, little league, youth football, basketball, etc and even just teachers. This is absolutely an issue that we as a nation/society are not dealing with effectively. We can and must to do better. I'm just not sure how fixating on the events of the early 1980's is the best use of the time dedicated to this cause. 1) There are three women whose lives have been affected deeply by his one act. Most are probably going to psychiatrists because of this, their lives have changed, irrevocably. And you tell me that because it happened in 1985 we shouldn't bother him anymore? How about those women? How do they get their 30 years back? 2) On a broader front, how old they were doesn't matter, what matters is that he used and abused his role as a teacher and a mentor to these women. This is one of the first things you learn in coaching ethics. You don't cross that line. I am sure that you take great care in how you deal with your athletes. 3) Look at all the other things going on out there, it happens all the time now, teachers sleeping with students. OK, does that make it right? 4) One thing that is interesting to me is that when it comes to women teachers abusing male students or if it is older priests molesting young boys, we are horrified and we try to after them, although the Catholic church has been woeful in their response until very recently, but when it is older men molesting young women in that same kind of relationship some want to believe that it is love and it is the girls going after the older guy? Projecting a bit of their own make fantasies on the situation perhaps? 5) Finally, following the limits of the law. Essentially the Joe Paterno defense. I reported it but I did nothing else because that is the limit of my responsibility. So your responsibility legally is your moral limit? How about your responsibility as a human being? As a teacher, as a mentor?
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Post by ProfessorPlum on Jun 6, 2017 12:46:27 GMT -5
I think as a society and through finally updating & enforcing our laws we are getting it going in the right direction. Collaborators and individuals responsible for covering up these types of things are finally being held accountable. Starting with Catholic Church Higher ups and now Penn St Admins, folks are going to jail not just for the crime but for the cover up. And that will help move the culture forward. Baylor Admins you are on the clock! And FSU Admins & Tally Police Dept should be spending some time in the can!
Administrators of organizations in the past have looked at these things through only one lens...how do I protect the organization from financial harm? That lens ultimately leads them to cover up and lawyer up! That lens is broken and if used now and you are caught...you're going to jail!
It may have been even a bigger needle mover if JoePa had survived his battle with cancer. The implications that he knew, delayed reporting and then never followed up is not only bizarre but would have never passed the new paradigm.
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Post by mikegarrison on Jun 6, 2017 13:07:15 GMT -5
OK, leaving aside the specific Rick Butler issue because I don't really know anything about it, do you think that there can be any rehabilitation for sex offenders? Or are they to be forever banned from everything no matter how long they go without re-offending? 1. You have over 31,000 posts on a volleyball forum and you don't know anything about the Rick Butler situation? That's like having 100k posts on a PETA forum and not knowing anything about "the Michael Vick situation" 2. Yes, I do think sex offenders can be rehabilitated but that would require acknowledgement, apologizing, counseling & various other steps towards forgiveness and rehabilitation. RB has never done any of this and even though an Illinois judge called him a sexual predator because of the testimony of THREE victims all claiming to be under 18 and as young as 15. He has never denied sleeping with all 3 of them multiple times but claims that they were over 18 and therefore there was nothing wrong with it. Even though he was clearly an authority figure. Do you want to know the big tell here: never once has RB sued any of the victims for defamation, slander or libel. You know why? Because he would be deposed under oath in any civil trial. Taking the 5th would Be tricky when answering opposing counsels questions if you are the one suing! 1. There are no words to describe just how profoundly uninterested in junior club volleyball I am. (No offense intended to the junior club volleyball coaches I'm friends with.) 2. OK, I agree with this one. I do think that rehabilitation should be possible for people, or else what's really the point of life? But there has to be movement from the offender. Rehabilitation requires work, not just time. And w.r.t. Phaedrus, I totally agree that it is a serious violation of professional ethics to use a position of authority and trust in such a way, whether or not the activity is otherwise legal.
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Post by vbnerd on Jun 6, 2017 13:54:55 GMT -5
1. I think I've read nearly everything and I still don't know what to think. Why did the Bremner's respond to the allegations of their older daughter by sending their younger daughter to play for him? Why did USAV ban him, but the State of Illinois saw fit to allow him to adopt? Why is there a statute of limitations on this anyway? I envy your clarity but I just can't get there. 2. So if he doesn't say he's sorry, he's still a threat to his players? Reading the bio of the player it says she attended Western Michigan in 1985. So we are talking more than 30 years ago. The last allegation is like 28 years ago, right? If you want to ban him in 1985 I'm with you. But as far as I know, this isn't the burning building anymore. Go and google "coach sleeping with student" and "coach molesting player" and there is no shortage of RECENT stories about events in gymnastics, little league, youth football, basketball, etc and even just teachers. This is absolutely an issue that we as a nation/society are not dealing with effectively. We can and must to do better. I'm just not sure how fixating on the events of the early 1980's is the best use of the time dedicated to this cause. 1) There are three women whose lives have been affected deeply by his one act. Most are probably going to psychiatrists because of this, their lives have changed, irrevocably. And you tell me that because it happened in 1985 we shouldn't bother him anymore? How about those women? How do they get their 30 years back? 2) On a broader front, how old they were doesn't matter, what matters is that he used and abused his role as a teacher and a mentor to these women. This is one of the first things you learn in coaching ethics. You don't cross that line. I am sure that you take great care in how you deal with your athletes. 3) Look at all the other things going on out there, it happens all the time now, teachers sleeping with students. OK, does that make it right? 4) One thing that is interesting to me is that when it comes to women teachers abusing male students or if it is older priests molesting young boys, we are horrified and we try to after them, although the Catholic church has been woeful in their response until very recently, but when it is older men molesting young women in that same kind of relationship some want to believe that it is love and it is the girls going after the older guy? Projecting a bit of their own make fantasies on the situation perhaps? 5) Finally, following the limits of the law. Essentially the Joe Paterno defense. I reported it but I did nothing else because that is the limit of my responsibility. So your responsibility legally is your moral limit? How about your responsibility as a human being? As a teacher, as a mentor? Was that for me? 1. Is there anything that can be done that is going to help these three women who have been dealing with this for 30 years? Is there anything we can do that is going to help the kids who may be victimized next week or next month? Where is that thread/conversation? I do what I can for my players with an eye on education and prevention but also to support those who have already been victimized. If there is more I can do, point me in that direction I'll gladly go there. 2. Agreed. 3. No, that's my point. Why look back 30 years when there is a battle to be waged today? 4. What are you talking about? I have no idea where you are coming from. 5. Not sure what this has to do with this case because I wasn't involved but for the information of you, this discussion and anyone who reads this... Responsibilities are different depending on your role. In training you are taught that as a coach, teacher, mentor or friend... if somebody comes to you with these claims you do have to believe them. You DO NOT ask about what they were wearing or could they have led them on or anything like that. You believe them. That's it. Your gut tells you they are lying, tough. That's not your role. You ask how you can help. You suggest they report it but don't force it. You may have to tell your superior but you may or may not be allowed to share the name depending on the applicable policies, rules and laws. No matter what they decide to do, you have their back. Conversely, if one of your players or students is accused, you believe them. THAT'S your job. There is somebody - the principal, the police, lawyers, judges, student conduct board, etc - who will sort it all out. As a coach, that's not our role. And sometimes the event is with two people you know, and you have to support them both. As a teacher, coach, mentor or friend, and you don't have first hand knowledge, you don't get to choose which narrative you prefer. You have to support both them as it advances through the justice system. That's one spot where Baylor failed epicly. Morality has surprisingly little to two with the actions of those inside the process.
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bluepenquin
Hall of Fame
4-Time VolleyTalk Poster of the Year (2019, 2018, 2017, 2016), All-VolleyTalk 1st Team (2021, 2020, 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016)
Posts: 12,385
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Post by bluepenquin on Jun 6, 2017 14:24:14 GMT -5
I think as a society and through finally updating & enforcing our laws we are getting it going in the right direction. Collaborators and individuals responsible for covering up these types of things are finally being held accountable. Starting with Catholic Church Higher ups and now Penn St Admins, folks are going to jail not just for the crime but for the cover up. And that will help move the culture forward. Baylor Admins you are on the clock! And FSU Admins & Tally Police Dept should be spending some time in the can! Administrators of organizations in the past have looked at these things through only one lens...how do I protect the organization from financial harm? That lens ultimately leads them to cover up and lawyer up! That lens is broken and if used now and you are caught...you're going to jail! It may have been even a bigger needle mover if JoePa had survived his battle with cancer. The implications that he knew, delayed reporting and then never followed up is not only bizarre but would have never passed the new paradigm. The Joe Paterno story has way too many layers for this kind of implication. He wasn't a Saint (no person is) - but this characterization isn't very accurate.
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Post by ProfessorPlum on Jun 6, 2017 14:32:15 GMT -5
I think as a society and through finally updating & enforcing our laws we are getting it going in the right direction. Collaborators and individuals responsible for covering up these types of things are finally being held accountable. Starting with Catholic Church Higher ups and now Penn St Admins, folks are going to jail not just for the crime but for the cover up. And that will help move the culture forward. Baylor Admins you are on the clock! And FSU Admins & Tally Police Dept should be spending some time in the can! Administrators of organizations in the past have looked at these things through only one lens...how do I protect the organization from financial harm? That lens ultimately leads them to cover up and lawyer up! That lens is broken and if used now and you are caught...you're going to jail! It may have been even a bigger needle mover if JoePa had survived his battle with cancer. The implications that he knew, delayed reporting and then never followed up is not only bizarre but would have never passed the new paradigm. The Joe Paterno story has way too many layers for this kind of implication. He wasn't a Saint (no person is) - but this characterization isn't very accurate. I disagree
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Post by bigfan on Jun 6, 2017 15:19:34 GMT -5
The Joe Paterno story has way too many layers for this kind of implication. He wasn't a Saint (no person is) - but this characterization isn't very accurate. You should be impeached and your 2016 Title stripped.
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bluepenquin
Hall of Fame
4-Time VolleyTalk Poster of the Year (2019, 2018, 2017, 2016), All-VolleyTalk 1st Team (2021, 2020, 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016)
Posts: 12,385
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Post by bluepenquin on Jun 6, 2017 15:27:14 GMT -5
The Joe Paterno story has way too many layers for this kind of implication. He wasn't a Saint (no person is) - but this characterization isn't very accurate. I disagree It must be a gift to see things so easily as being black and white...
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