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Post by wilsonthevolleyball2 on Aug 4, 2017 17:47:06 GMT -5
While I grew up with the Miller Light Lifestyle of the original AVP Tour and loved it, I think that the current model is a breath of fresh air in a very crowded and noisy sports marketing landscape. I've watched as groups of girls from our beach/indoor volleyball program have experienced both the Seattle and Hermosa Beach events. They love Taylor Crabb, but they also love Sheila Shaw. Sarah and Kelly have their attention, as does Rosie. They don't like Ricardo because he wouldn't autograph their shirts. It's been incredibly fun and rewarding to watch these kids become both players and fans. Not all of them are super into the fan side, but the ones who are have a huge appreciation for the fact that the women and men are placed on pretty even footing. It sends a message to them that they belong and that this can be theirs too. I worked for the Seattle Sounders before they became an MLS franchise. They had an extensive youth camp program that ran through the Summer and provided extra income for the players when they had time to work as coaches or make appearances at the camps. It has taken 20 years, but that camp program has turned into an incredible fan base fills the stadium with 36k+ fans per match every time, despite the fact that the talent on display is overall not as good as what they could see watching the European leagues on TV. The Miller Light, Corona, Jose Cuervo lifestyle just didn't end up being sustainable for the AVP. Growing a fan base from the grass roots with accessible athletes of both genders has a pretty strong chance at succeeding in the long run. Having a points system and a pipeline that runs from the Junior AVPFirst program through the AVPNext and Pro Tour sends a message to the thousands of young girls who are picking up the sport of beach volleyball. The message is that they belong and that there is a future for them with the AVP. That could be the best bet to make sure that the AVP has a future. Beach volleyball will likely always be a niche sport. It is foolish to think that the AVP or anyone else will compete with the NBA, NFL, MLB or NHL in terms of revenue or their ability to offer big impact to sponsors. Sponsors who want to market to a specific niche will find the AVP and will reach a core audience of healthy, active young people who spend their time outside. It may not create billions of dollars in revenue, but there is no reason to think that a properly grown niche market cannot grow in a similar manner to Tennis, MMA or Lacrosse and be very successful if managed properly. It's more of the Seth Godin approach as opposed to the Madison Avenue approach to business development. I agree: beach volleyball, I think by its nature, has always a bit of that festive feel to it. It just goes to the roots of the game. That said, I don't think the sport should, or ever will, go back to that previous mentality. Even at its peak, beach volleyball was treated as a fad by sponsors. Did they throw real money in the pot? Indeed. Yet when it all went downhill, they really just turned around and didn't look back. Now sure there are many (many, many, maaaaaany) reasons why the AVP went bankrupt, but the fact is most sponsors considered it an "event" more so a "sport". And they easily just pulled out when it no longer suited them. As for the whole "split the tour" talk, I really don't see that being even remotely feasible. And comparing men's beach volleyball to the NBA is really stretching it I think: one is a major sport with millions of fans, the other is a niche sport. A very niche, misunderstood sport. Plus, other men's sports have a system of support at the collegiate and lower levels, which beach volley does not. So I don't think we can say "look at ___, that's how we should treat it for beach volley". The lifestyle from the previous era just doesn't do it anymore. It was fun sure, but no one would take it seriously today. It would be exactly like the Legends Football League. And that mindset doesn't really grow anything really. I'm a huge fan of both the men's and women's side, and I don't think you could separate them without imploding the whole thing. I feel that the game should stick to its current model. It's a different mentality sure, but one that has kept it going.
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Post by Fight On! on Aug 4, 2017 18:36:51 GMT -5
Good lord. I almost wondered if I was at the RNC with how pig-headed some of the talk was in here. Why do dude-bros always love to %*$# on women's sports? As for the combined tour model. Any idiot could tell you that model is what keeps this sport afloat. Separate tours would cut out the legs from the sport. The AVP's problem is not that they have the women. It's that they aren't the premier tour anymore. Back in the Beijing Quad, Kerri and Misty opted to play AVP because they could get just as good of (if not better) competition on any given weekend than they could in the AVP. That's not the case anymore which is why it isn't super compelling. The AVP results just aren't relevant because we see what happens when they go out on the FIVB tour. Our teams get killed and even our elite teams win scraps. +1
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Post by donnyw on Aug 4, 2017 18:55:41 GMT -5
No matter how much Donald Sun tries, Leonard Armato tries or Kerri Walsh tries, USA beach volleyball will never rebound to anywhere near close to what it was years ago. Just not enough fan interest, sponsor interest, etc...It's just the way it is...I love watching women's sports, but the AVP on the women's side in 2017 has been down right boring. Different teams are winning which is a good thing. The finals are lopsided (most of the time),The only reason I continued to watch the women's side this year was for the hopes that Donald & Kerri would kiss & make up and Kerri would return. But that's not happening right now...AND...my wife & daughter like it so that's a plus. Look what's happening to Women's tennis 🎾 while Serena is out. Rating are down!! Her sister is trying to keep it interesting. What happens to American Women's tennis when those two women retire? I'm scared to think about it! I personally like watching the WNBA..some compelling athletes over there.
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mati
Sophomore
Posts: 125
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Post by mati on Aug 4, 2017 20:19:34 GMT -5
No matter how much Donald Sun tries, Leonard Armato tries or Kerri Walsh tries, USA beach volleyball will never rebound to anywhere near close to what it was years ago. The early 90s are never coming back. I'll never be in high school again. Karch isn't going to dominate the World again. What has to be created is a new product for the current market. One that can leverage itself over a variety of income streams including juniors, sponsorship, event revenue and strategic partnerships. We can always pay homage to the "good ol' days" but the business model has to evolve and move forward. With any luck, those of us who remember the "good ol' days" will find something to enjoy in the new model. Even if it is just small moments of nostalgia. Back to the topic of the post. If the tour is going to succeed in the long run, my opinion is that the women are here to stay and will always feature alongside the men. Setting yourself apart as a sport who embraces equal pay and equal treatment will go a long ways the more the inequality issues of USA Soccer, USA Hockey, The WNBA and other women's leagues are brought to the forefront. There is a great message to capitalize on here and a way to draw attention to the current AVP because it is different in this regard.
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Post by geddyleeridesagain on Aug 4, 2017 20:51:24 GMT -5
Beach volleyball is different than most any other pro sport in the U.S., in that you have men and women competing in the same tournament. The closest analogy would be tennis. And who can name the top ranked male American players? Crickets. Who can name the top ranked women's players? Well, duh. If you plopped the 1987 mens tour into 2017, it would fold after five events. Times have changed, tastes have changed. The old AVP was a product of its time, and that time is long past. I don't think anyone is clamoring for Miami Vice to make a comeback, if you get my drift. And I can definitely tell you who NBC, ESPN, etal are most interested in, and it sure as hell isn't Zaun or Lorenz (LOL). Their interest is based on market research, ratings, and ad buys. Anyway, the overall point isn't that one gender or another are more appealing, but that a sport struggling to find its footing needs to appeal to the widest audience. And that is a combined tour. Sun would tell you that as well. As would Leonard. Not to mention Angelo (who runs FIVB beach). You invoke market research as if it were peer reviewed science, rather than the constantly wrong dubious social science that brought us: The XFL The WNBA Grey's Anatomy as a mid-season replacement and about a billion other examples where market research turned out to be garbage. Its borderline junk science and older people trying to figure out the zeitgeist and whats cool within that is notoriously unreliable. As to Miami Vice, www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/miami-vice-reboot-vin-diesel-works-at-nbc-1026163I think there was a movie a little while ago as well. Tastes have certainly changed but some things are universal and I think the original AVP party environment (with certain changes - less neon for example) is one of them. I just don't see how you make the case that a tour full of awkward, unathletic, boring giants is more marketable than a tour full of models. Its possible you could be right and I could be wrong, but please answer this question: What or who is cool or attractive to 15-30 year olds about the current tour? I invoke market research as someone with an MBA in marketing and decades of experience. Not that I believe it infallible by any means, but if's far more grounded in science - analytics, linear regression models, Chi-squared testing, blah blah - than you make it out to be. The XFL could certainly have used more it, instead of Vince McMahon drawing it up on a napkin and selling it to NBC. On the other hand, the XFL did give us the "He Hate Me" jerrsey. Funny that the WNBA gets tossed around like a rag doll on this thread - it's in something like its 22nd year, attendance is around 8,000 per game, at least half the teams are running in the black, and they recently signed a deal with ESPN through 2022. Massive success? No. Failure? Also no. And Gray's Anatomy...well, I don't know where you were going with that one. The original AVP "party atmosphere" was a sausage fest plus the Miss Cuervo girls. That ain't flying in 2017 with sponsors. However, a lifestyle, festival-type atmosphere with, food, cocktails, music? Better. For all of the flack Leonard takes, bringing in musical acts has worked quite well at the WSOVB. And yes, 15-30 year olds think hanging out at the beach and then getting to watch Capital Cities or Kaskade is cool as f# k. But strippers trying win $200 in a bikini contest? Not so much. Who was making a case for "boring giants?" I certainly wasn't. I was making a case that it would be folly to have separate tours. The big wave the AVP rode fizzled out by 1997, and isn't coming back. Today, the financial pie for beach volleyball just isn't big enough for different tours who would, it should be noted, be competing for the same endorsements, TV time and so on. A combined tour gives the AVP the broadest platform in terms of media coverage, sponsor $$, and - yes - marketing. P.S. - The movie version of Miami Vice bombed in the U.S. Time to put that white linen Versace sport coat and pastel T-Shirt back in the closet.
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Post by donnyw on Aug 4, 2017 23:06:35 GMT -5
Geddy....? Are you skeptical that the NVL will return "Bigger & Better" in 2018 or is Al dreaming? He sounds as though he is going to make a bigger go of it....I'm kinda skeptical, unless he has or is in the process of pulling in some major sponsors...And still banking on Walsh to lead the tour...
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Post by guest2 on Aug 5, 2017 0:15:21 GMT -5
You invoke market research as if it were peer reviewed science, rather than the constantly wrong dubious social science that brought us: The XFL The WNBA Grey's Anatomy as a mid-season replacement and about a billion other examples where market research turned out to be garbage. Its borderline junk science and older people trying to figure out the zeitgeist and whats cool within that is notoriously unreliable. As to Miami Vice, www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/miami-vice-reboot-vin-diesel-works-at-nbc-1026163I think there was a movie a little while ago as well. Tastes have certainly changed but some things are universal and I think the original AVP party environment (with certain changes - less neon for example) is one of them. I just don't see how you make the case that a tour full of awkward, unathletic, boring giants is more marketable than a tour full of models. Its possible you could be right and I could be wrong, but please answer this question: What or who is cool or attractive to 15-30 year olds about the current tour? I invoke market research as someone with an MBA in marketing and decades of experience. Not that I believe it infallible by any means, but if's far more grounded in science - analytics, linear regression models, Chi-squared testing, blah blah - than you make it out to be. The XFL could certainly have used more it, instead of Vince McMahon drawing it up on a napkin and selling it to NBC. On the other hand, the XFL did give us the "He Hate Me" jerrsey. Funny that the WNBA gets tossed around like a rag doll on this thread - it's in something like its 22nd year, attendance is around 8,000 per game, at least half the teams are running in the black, and they recently signed a deal with ESPN through 2022. Massive success? No. Failure? Also no. And Gray's Anatomy...well, I don't know where you were going with that one. The original AVP "party atmosphere" was a sausage fest plus the Miss Cuervo girls. That ain't flying in 2017 with sponsors. However, a lifestyle, festival-type atmosphere with, food, cocktails, music? Better. For all of the flack Leonard takes, bringing in musical acts has worked quite well at the WSOVB. And yes, 15-30 year olds think hanging out at the beach and then getting to watch Capital Cities or Kaskade is cool as f# k. But strippers trying win $200 in a bikini contest? Not so much. Who was making a case for "boring giants?" I certainly wasn't. I was making a case that it would be folly to have separate tours. The big wave the AVP rode fizzled out by 1997, and isn't coming back. Today, the financial pie for beach volleyball just isn't big enough for different tours who would, it should be noted, be competing for the same endorsements, TV time and so on. A combined tour gives the AVP the broadest platform in terms of media coverage, sponsor $$, and - yes - marketing. P.S. - The movie version of Miami Vice bombed in the U.S. Time to put that white linen Versace sport coat and pastel T-Shirt back in the closet. Boring giants is what the current tour is. Ryan, Phil, Jake, Stafford, Lauren, Jen, etc. etc. etc. all fit that description. The WNBA is a failure by any standard. After 20 years, the owner of the New York team said "“It hasn’t made money, its prospects of making money, at that time and even today, are still slim.” The NBA has spent over 100 million dollars promoting the WNBA. 100 million dollars. After 20 years, half the teams are technically in the black (which means half the businesses lose money) solely because the NBA forced its network partners to buy WNBA rights as part of buying NBA rights. That isnt a real profit its a sham. If the NBA withdrew its support, the WNBA would fold in six months. Its the Donald Trump Jr of sports leagues. Oh and for 20 years the best marketers in sports, some of the best creative people period, and every major sports media outlet, plus over 100 million dollars has been trying to make the WNBA happen. A sausage fest plus dancing girls, you mean like the NFL? I wasn't advocating for bikini contests coming back. They were offensive then and I didn't like them then, just like I don't like the cheerleaders now. (but acting as if Miss Miller Lite is different than the cheerleaders at FIVB events is as ridiculous as your "WNBA is a success" argument) You make my point for me when you say 15-30 year olds find hanging out at the beach listening to .... cool. Sure. But what does that have to do with BVB? Ryan could be battling Trevor in beach croquet and those same people would still be enjoying the music on the beach. We both agree lifestyle and event are important, but in the early days what drove that was players were part of the lifestyle and looked and acted the part. Today's players look and act like what they are, middle aged dads and tacking on independently drawing events doesn't change that. In short, men's players used to be Jimmy Connors, now they are Bjorn Borg . I think a men's tour is best but if Sun is determined to have two tours he should change the women's format to a shootout. Limiting the women's side to the top 6 teams would focus on the high level of play that exists among them (mostly, although not right now) and not bog down the product overall. Oh and Miami Vice made over 150 million
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Post by guest2 on Aug 5, 2017 0:46:32 GMT -5
Do you realize people don't watch women's sports because people are conditioned to believe that women aren't worthy to watch because they aren't as athletic, can't jump as high, can't run as fast, etc. Very few sports viewers actually watch sports for their actual abilities. People like two things in sports: Winning and stories. You market an athlete with a good story AND they win. You have magic. Regardless of gender. The Olympics have proven time and time again that is the formula for success. I won't argue with you that the NBA or WNBA are somehow equivalent. However, Beach Volleyball? There is relative parity. It isn't even debatable. I agree that casuals don't know this. However, TV broadcasters know this. Sponsors know this. They are the people that determine if the product actually gets seen. Right now, it isn't being seen. Eventually what happens is fans who are inclined to watch peter out because they don't want to have to work too hard to watch. The Olympics as an event are constantly cited for all kinds of dubious propositions, but its the Olympics themselves that sell. You know the story that sells in women's athletics, and with one or two exceptions, it is the only one. "She's hot." Thats it, thats why the most famous player in WNBA history is Lisa Leslie, thats why the best known female tennis stars are also sex symbols (Serena, Evert, Kournikova, Sharapova) whose appeal is tied mostly to their perceived hotness, rather than on court success. Its why Ronda Rousey and Gina Carano are the two most successful female fighters ever and its why Gabrielle Reece is still a media presence and Karolyn Kirby couldnt get recognized if she walked through Liz Masakayan's house holding a volleyball. I don't like it and I think it has hurt many of my favorite female athletes, and led to limited opportunities for women perceived as butch or lesbians, but its true. Straight women as a rule don't watch sports alone or with other women and men are usually a 2/3s or more majority of viewers for most women's sports, as ESPN once conceded about the WNBA. When women do watch sports, like men, they prefer men's sports
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Post by geddyleeridesagain on Aug 5, 2017 1:03:16 GMT -5
I invoke market research as someone with an MBA in marketing and decades of experience. Not that I believe it infallible by any means, but if's far more grounded in science - analytics, linear regression models, Chi-squared testing, blah blah - than you make it out to be. The XFL could certainly have used more it, instead of Vince McMahon drawing it up on a napkin and selling it to NBC. On the other hand, the XFL did give us the "He Hate Me" jerrsey. Funny that the WNBA gets tossed around like a rag doll on this thread - it's in something like its 22nd year, attendance is around 8,000 per game, at least half the teams are running in the black, and they recently signed a deal with ESPN through 2022. Massive success? No. Failure? Also no. And Gray's Anatomy...well, I don't know where you were going with that one. The original AVP "party atmosphere" was a sausage fest plus the Miss Cuervo girls. That ain't flying in 2017 with sponsors. However, a lifestyle, festival-type atmosphere with, food, cocktails, music? Better. For all of the flack Leonard takes, bringing in musical acts has worked quite well at the WSOVB. And yes, 15-30 year olds think hanging out at the beach and then getting to watch Capital Cities or Kaskade is cool as f# k. But strippers trying win $200 in a bikini contest? Not so much. Who was making a case for "boring giants?" I certainly wasn't. I was making a case that it would be folly to have separate tours. The big wave the AVP rode fizzled out by 1997, and isn't coming back. Today, the financial pie for beach volleyball just isn't big enough for different tours who would, it should be noted, be competing for the same endorsements, TV time and so on. A combined tour gives the AVP the broadest platform in terms of media coverage, sponsor $$, and - yes - marketing. P.S. - The movie version of Miami Vice bombed in the U.S. Time to put that white linen Versace sport coat and pastel T-Shirt back in the closet. Boring giants is what the current tour is. Ryan, Phil, Jake, Stafford, Lauren, Jen, etc. etc. etc. all fit that description. The WNBA is a failure by any standard. After 20 years, the owner of the New York team said "“It hasn’t made money, its prospects of making money, at that time and even today, are still slim.” The NBA has spent over 100 million dollars promoting the WNBA. 100 million dollars. After 20 years, half the teams are technically in the black (which means half the businesses lose money) solely because the NBA forced its network partners to buy WNBA rights as part of buying NBA rights. That isnt a real profit its a sham. If the NBA withdrew its support, the WNBA would fold in six months. Its the Donald Trump Jr of sports leagues. Oh and for 20 years the best marketers in sports, some of the best creative people period, and every major sports media outlet, plus over 100 million dollars has been trying to make the WNBA happen. A sausage fest plus dancing girls, you mean like the NFL? I wasn't advocating for bikini contests coming back. They were offensive then and I didn't like them then, just like I don't like the cheerleaders now. (but acting as if Miss Miller Lite is different than the cheerleaders at FIVB events is as ridiculous as your "WNBA is a success" argument) You make my point for me when you say 15-30 year olds find hanging out at the beach listening to .... cool. Sure. But what does that have to do with BVB? Ryan could be battling Trevor in beach croquet and those same people would still be enjoying the music on the beach. We both agree lifestyle and event are important, but in the early days what drove that was players were part of the lifestyle and looked and acted the part. Today's players look and act like what they are, middle aged dads and tacking on independently drawing events doesn't change that. In short, men's players used to be Jimmy Connors, now they are Bjorn Borg . I think a men's tour is best but if Sun is determined to have two tours he should change the women's format to a shootout. Limiting the women's side to the top 6 teams would focus on the high level of play that exists among them (mostly, although not right now) and not bog down the product overall. Oh and Miami Vice made over 150 million Phil is a "boring giant?" If you can't appreciate how talented Phil is, then I'm not sure what you're doing watching beach volleyball. Especially considering your affinity for Pavan, who is the epitome of a boring giant. Odd. Your perspective of the WNBA is outdated. The NBA has spent $100 million on the WNBA? Over 22 years? Drop in the bucket. The NBA also spends millions on the D-League (now the G-League) as well. And none of those franchises are making any money.. At least a good number of the WNBA franchise are. And the attendance figures bode well, particularly since player salary expenses are pretty tightly controlled. But enough about the WNBA, a sport that I've never actually seen, but somehow find myself defending. 45% of NFL fans are female, so no, not a sausage fest: www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/women-are-pro-footballs-most-important-market-will-they-forgive-the-nfl/2014/09/12/d5ba8874-3a7f-11e4-9c9f-ebb47272e40e_story.html?utm_term=.65f29245494cAnd I'm sorry, but IMO anyone who thinks a separate men's tour is a good idea is simply out of touch with where the sport is right now, but I hope we never have to find out. At any rate, this has become fruitless, as I feel like I'm just repeating myself at this point. Moving on now. P.S. - Miami Vice made $63 million in the USA on a $135 million budget. That's not just a bomb, that's a neutron bomb. $150 million worldwide. The studios consider a $15 million return on a major Summer film a serious flop.
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Post by 405LAX on Aug 5, 2017 1:36:26 GMT -5
As you all bicker, I'm just awaiting the separate MBO men's & women's threads so I can thoroughly disregard the latter because it's like drinking flat Sprite, a pale imitation of the game being played at meh physical levels.
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Post by guest2 on Aug 5, 2017 2:04:10 GMT -5
Boring giants is what the current tour is. Ryan, Phil, Jake, Stafford, Lauren, Jen, etc. etc. etc. all fit that description. Phil is a "boring giant?" If you can't appreciate how talented Phil is, then I'm not sure what you're doing watching beach volleyball. Especially considering your affinity for Pavan, who is the epitome of a boring giant. Odd. Your perspective of the WNBA is outdated. The NBA has spent $100 million on the WNBA? Over 22 years? Drop in the bucket. The NBA also spends millions on the D-League (now the G-League) as well. And none of those franchises are making any money.. At least a good number of the WNBA franchise are. And the attendance figures bode well, particularly since player salary expenses are pretty tightly controlled. But enough about the WNBA, a sport that I've never actually seen, but somehow find myself defending. 45% of NFL fans are female, so no, not a sausage fest: www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/women-are-pro-footballs-most-important-market-will-they-forgive-the-nfl/2014/09/12/d5ba8874-3a7f-11e4-9c9f-ebb47272e40e_story.html?utm_term=.65f29245494cAnd I'm sorry, but IMO anyone who thinks a separate men's tour is a good idea is simply out of touch with where the sport is right now, but I hope we never have to find out. At any rate, this has become fruitless, as I feel like I'm just repeating myself at this point. Moving on now. P.S. - Miami Vice made $63 million in the USA on a $135 million budget. That's not just a bomb, that's a neutron bomb. $150 million worldwide. The studios consider a $15 million return on a major Summer film a serious flop. Perhaps the reason you feel like you are repeating yourself is rather than offer reasons to justify what you say, you simply say "I know better." Your persistence in arguing the WNBA point is illustrative here. You simply won't back off despite mountains of evidence to the contrary. WNBA attendance per game was lower last year than it was ten years ago and massively lower than it was 20 years ago. But attendance bodes well? The six seasons in WNBA history with the lowest attendance were: 2015, 2006, 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2016. That right the last five years are all in the top 6 of lowest attendance seasons ever. But "attendance bodes well." The same is true of ratings. Current ratings are much lower than they were 20 years ago. Finally if all that won't convince you perhaps you will take the word of the longtime owners of the two most successful WNBA franchises (LA and NY) and only two founding teams remaining. in 2014, the Sparks owner sold her team saying she couldn't survive losing any more money. NY's owner said the league had not succeeded and probably wouldn't (he said that last year) Oh and Adam Silver, a founder of the league and the current de facto head of the league, conceded the WNBA had not succeeded yet. I'm not sure if you understand my point about the NBA adding money to the WNBA's books. If you are selling lemonade and no one buys it, but your mom shows up and hands you $20 then pours the cup of oversugared sewage water you made into a plant, that doesn't mean you came up with a successful business plan. Its an accounting trick. And Phil is boring. He shows no emotion on court, has no passion for the game, and his most spectacular days are behind him
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Post by boxarox on Aug 5, 2017 2:06:46 GMT -5
I'm with you there, LAX. Take the six women's teams that placed 1-5 in Hermosa, put them into the Manhattan Qual as Q1-6, and how many will make to the main? One, maybe? I'd be shocked if two did. There's spirit there, poise and finesse, but when push comes to shove, range and power keep the ball up, and put it down.
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Post by ciscokeed on Aug 5, 2017 6:06:15 GMT -5
A couple of thoughts. Will collegiate beach B.B. Create a more exciting pipeline of talent to the AVP? (This improving the product) And why don't the millions of girls who play club or high school Vb never support their own sport? If we could connect better with the club kids and their families would that make a fan base difference
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Post by JB Southpaw on Aug 5, 2017 6:29:31 GMT -5
As you all bicker, I'm just awaiting the separate MBO men's & women's threads so I can thoroughly disregard the latter because it's like drinking flat Sprite, a pale imitation of the game being played at meh physical levels. I'm going to start all my threads with "womens" title, so it keeps you away!!
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Post by fetchin on Aug 5, 2017 8:33:51 GMT -5
I am a lynx fan but I admit the wnba wouldn't be around without the nba backing it up, their ratings are pitiful even college softball beats them..
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