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Post by Wolfgang on Dec 20, 2018 15:50:10 GMT -5
Is it “avoiding” or just going with the norm of what one always does? If you look back at most clubs schedules they are usually in the same tournaments every single year regardless of affiliation. Somewhat makes year to year scheduling easy if you know every single year when and where you’re going to play. It is a well known fact that spri hasn’t gone to any girls USAV tounements in a decade so why should this year be any different of a focus? Plus one could argue that USAV tournaments aren’t always the most smoothly run, stay to play policies add to the cost of travel, chasing qualifiers, roster locks limiting flexibility, etc. We could, again, add that their is the qualifier in Chicago. But again, spri hasn’t played in a USAV event in a decade and has done pretty well since then. And many clubs have done well even not playing spri teams. Teams just have to choose as if they’re choosing PlayStation vs XBox. Some have both, but most only do one. And there’s plenty of good local and non local tournaments (games) in each platform that provide steady competition for all levels. A post like this is just begging Wolfgang to break into this thread like Kool-Aid Man.. I was confused why you tagged me in the first place and then I got to the part about PlayStation vs. Xbox. LOL!
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Post by n00b on Dec 20, 2018 15:53:35 GMT -5
Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but the only person who has a choice where she wants to play is Landfair, if she feels USAV is that important then it is very easy for her to put herself in a situation where she could compete against those players. Until recently rb was allowed to be a part of USAV only as a chaperone but was not permitted to coach - hence why JVA was created. Since he is now banned from that as well this problem could be solved by absolving himself completely from coaching, including being at the facility as if they registered USAV he could not do that either. Erik Vogt is her high school coach and a top person at SPRI, so unless he can convince rb to leave or he goes to another club he also does not have a choice. So no, USAV is not a choice for the club as long as rb wants to coach, not an option for Erik as long as he coaches at SPRI, and not an option for Landfair as long as she continues to play for SPRI. My response was specifically to a SPRI-bot (with 3 posts) who said: "A kid like Landfair at SPRI is on the verge of developing into a superstar and none of those WCPL players are going to see her across the net. In past years all those players would have competed against each other multiple times. S-S-S (selfish, stupid & sad)! " I found that ironic since SPRI has intentionally avoided top caliber competition for decades now, so I called BS. There is nothing that says SPRI teams not coached by RB can't play USAV, and their boys have done it, but the "club" chooses not to allow any girls teams to play any USAV events or even to play in any crossover events such as the NIT. Our club has played virtually every top JVA-only team except for SPRI. People have argued here that there are many good coaches at SPRI and that it is much bigger than just RB. What reason does the rest of the staff have for avoiding all contact with USAV teams? None. As long as all decisions at SPRI are made exclusively in the best interests of RB over the staff and players, then SPRI and RB are one and the same, arguments to the contrary not withstanding. That means SPRI as a club has made a choice, staff that works there have made a choice and players playing there have made a choice. A choice that the interests of a coach banned by the governing body of his sport and also banned by the very organization he started to get around his ban, is far more important than the best interest of the players, the staff, the club, and the greater good of the sport. S-S-S. I actively cheer against Butler and SPVB whenever I can, but the tournament argument is just wrong. They don't go to Triple Crown because they've always hosted their own tourney that weekend that makes them lots of money. All club directors in that spot would do the same thing. Every one of their teams go to JVA Worlds every year (that ANYBODY can sign up for) and AAU Nationals (which ANYBODY can sign up for) along with usually send a few Elite teams to Bluegrass every year (all of their high school aged 1s teams went last year). This year might be different with the demise of the SPVB-hosted events, but their schedule did give them elite competition even if they didn't happen to play against your club.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2018 17:58:51 GMT -5
I actively cheer against Butler and SPVB whenever I can, but the tournament argument is just wrong. They don't go to Triple Crown because they've always hosted their own tourney that weekend that makes them lots of money. All club directors in that spot would do the same thing. Every one of their teams go to JVA Worlds every year (that ANYBODY can sign up for) and AAU Nationals (which ANYBODY can sign up for) along with usually send a few Elite teams to Bluegrass every year (all of their high school aged 1s teams went last year). This year might be different with the demise of the SPVB-hosted events, but their schedule did give them elite competition even if they didn't happen to play against your club. Again, my initial response was to the SPRI-bot chastising clubs for not playing the series hosted by SPRI and saying they were selfish, stupid and sad. Yes, I know exactly why RB doesn't allow his teams to play at the NIT, USAV qualifiers, or even JVA events like the West Coast Cup. He has somehow built a monopoly the size and scope of which doesn't exist anywhere else. He controls most of the major events his teams play in, and uses the strength of his teams as a draw to convince other teams to play in his series, his tournaments and his national championship. It is hubris on such a grand scale that it could never work, yet he did it. He didn't pull that off by being stupid. My point was the sheer hypocrisy in the statement that other clubs were denying their kids the opportunity to play SPRI, when the entire SPRI business model is based on limiting the exposure of SPRI kids to top level competition outside the region. It is much easier to look good when you play a small subset of the best teams, largely in your own controlled environment. RB has been a master of that.
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Post by maɡˈnōlēə on Dec 21, 2018 1:01:21 GMT -5
I would argue that Landfair knows why she has developed to a fine player and it has a lot to do with where she received her training. Incidentally if I remember correctly her mom is a vb coach and chose, long ago, for Landfair to go to the club she currently plays for.
The same with another player in that age group, Hattie Monson. Although in Monson's case I'm not 100% certain that her mom coached but for some reason that is something that I'm 98% sure of.
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Post by why on Dec 21, 2018 1:18:22 GMT -5
I would argue that Landfair knows why she has developed to a fine player and it has a lot to do with where she received her training. Incidentally if I remember correctly her mom is a vb coach and chose, long ago, for Landfair to go to the club she currently plays for. The same with another player in that age group, Hattie Monson. Although in Monson's case I'm not 100% certain that her mom coached but for some reason that is something that I'm 98% sure of. The problem is that Rick can no longer coach in AAU, USAV or JVA so anyone who plays for SPRI will no longer be under his DIRECTION and CONTROL. Do you think...sorry I know better than asking questions.
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Post by moderndaycoach on Dec 21, 2018 9:19:06 GMT -5
I would argue that Landfair knows why she has developed to a fine player and it has a lot to do with where she received her training. Incidentally if I remember correctly her mom is a vb coach and chose, long ago, for Landfair to go to the club she currently plays for. The same with another player in that age group, Hattie Monson. Although in Monson's case I'm not 100% certain that her mom coached but for some reason that is something that I'm 98% sure of. The problem is that Rick can no longer coach in AAU, USAV or JVA so anyone who plays for SPRI will no longer be under his DIRECTION and CONTROL. Do you think...sorry I know better than asking questions. Right but the counter point is exactly what John Kessel wrote back in 2015 in that you are paying clubs for practice, not for playing. If you think that rb is not in that gym as the master coach for the older kids and has a hand in how almost every level trains and develops then you are way too naive. So going back to the point I made before, that if his teams were to ever register full USAV he could not even be in the gym. Until a rule comes about that says he can not be in his own gym then he will continue to do so and kids who believe in what he can provide will continue to train there.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2018 13:01:59 GMT -5
The problem is that Rick can no longer coach in AAU, USAV or JVA so anyone who plays for SPRI will no longer be under his DIRECTION and CONTROL. Do you think...sorry I know better than asking questions. Right but the counter point is exactly what John Kessel wrote back in 2015 in that you are paying clubs for practice, not for playing. If you think that rb is not in that gym as the master coach for the older kids and has a hand in how almost every level trains and develops then you are way too naive. So going back to the point I made before, that if his teams were to ever register full USAV he could not even be in the gym. Until a rule comes about that says he can not be in his own gym then he will continue to do so and kids who believe in what he can provide will continue to train there. Are the rules really any different for a coach banned by the AAU or the JVA than they are for a coach banned by USAV? I'm seriously asking, because I do not know. My understanding from conversations and reading rules in the past (prior to his latest bans) was that there was little any of those associations could do inside of his gym, but that they could ban him from their events. Has that now changed with safesport?
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Post by Phaedrus on Dec 21, 2018 14:09:15 GMT -5
Right but the counter point is exactly what John Kessel wrote back in 2015 in that you are paying clubs for practice, not for playing. If you think that rb is not in that gym as the master coach for the older kids and has a hand in how almost every level trains and develops then you are way too naive. So going back to the point I made before, that if his teams were to ever register full USAV he could not even be in the gym. Until a rule comes about that says he can not be in his own gym then he will continue to do so and kids who believe in what he can provide will continue to train there. Are the rules really any different for a coach banned by the AAU or the JVA than they are for a coach banned by USAV? I'm seriously asking, because I do not know. My understanding from conversations and reading rules in the past (prior to his latest bans) was that there was little any of those associations could do inside of his gym, but that they could ban him from their events. Has that now changed with safesport? Not sure AAU or JVA follow Safesport.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2018 14:23:32 GMT -5
I would argue that Landfair knows why she has developed to a fine player and it has a lot to do with where she received her training. Incidentally if I remember correctly her mom is a vb coach and chose, long ago, for Landfair to go to the club she currently plays for. The same with another player in that age group, Hattie Monson. Although in Monson's case I'm not 100% certain that her mom coached but for some reason that is something that I'm 98% sure of. Nobody brought up Landfair to criticize her for playing at SPRI. The issue is a SPRI-bot criticizing OTHER club directors for holding their teams out of SPRI events and calling them "selfish, stupid & sad" for not coming to RB's gym to play Landfair. That is extremely hypocritical coming from a club that has voluntarily held their girls out of the best national competition for years, even when it is local. I understand that RB has extremely selfish motives for avoiding top competition, both financially and personally as a coach, but that doesn't make the SPRI-bot claim any less hypocritical and doesn't make his self-imposed isolation of his girls from the best in the nation any less damaging to the sport. Top teams come from as far as Florida, Texas and California to play in Chicago, but he won't send his team down the street to meet them. I understand that was a calculated choice he made years ago to support his career and to line his pocket. It is in HIS best interest, but is not in the best interest of his players or youth volleyball. That is sad and extremely selfish, which is why I find the comment from the SPRI-bot both amusing and extremely hypocritical. I would never accuse him of being stupid. Ruthless, yes. Unethical, yes. An embarrassment to youth volleyball, yes. Stupid, absolutely not.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2018 15:42:13 GMT -5
Are the rules really any different for a coach banned by the AAU or the JVA than they are for a coach banned by USAV? I'm seriously asking, because I do not know. My understanding from conversations and reading rules in the past (prior to his latest bans) was that there was little any of those associations could do inside of his gym, but that they could ban him from their events. Has that now changed with safesport? Not sure AAU or JVA follow Safesport. I don't think they do. My question was whether USAV using SafeSport now adds a level where he would not be allowed to coach in his own gym. My understanding is that in the past, USAV would have no jurisdiction in his gym, only at events they sponsor and insure. What I don't know (and am hoping somebody does) is whether that has changed.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2018 16:24:41 GMT -5
Not sure AAU or JVA follow Safesport. I don't think they do. My question was whether USAV using SafeSport now adds a level where he would not be allowed to coach in his own gym. My understanding is that in the past, USAV would have no jurisdiction in his gym, only at events they sponsor and insure. What I don't know (and am hoping somebody does) is whether that has changed. I don't think this will answer your question, but I had reached out to SafeSport asking why RB wasn't on their disciplinary list. Here is the response I received. "Mr. Butler is not on the U.S. Center for SafeSport’s publicly-searchable database because the U.S. Center for SafeSport was not the investigative agency that made Butler’s membership permanently ineligible. USA Volleyball investigated/adjudicated the matter and was the entity that made the disciplinary decision. You can find Mr. Butler on USAVB’s Suspended Membership List (https://www.teamusa.org/usa-volleyball/about-us/safesport/suspended-list). There may be a time that previously investigated individuals by other National Governing Bodies may be included in the Center’s database. At this point of time, the Center’s database only includes individuals that it has found violated the Code. Thanks for the question and please feel free to reach out if you have any other questions. Take care, Jocelyn Shafer " So I do not see how SafeSport would have any authority over RB given that they do not even list him.
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Post by Phaedrus on Dec 21, 2018 16:30:28 GMT -5
I don't think they do. My question was whether USAV using SafeSport now adds a level where he would not be allowed to coach in his own gym. My understanding is that in the past, USAV would have no jurisdiction in his gym, only at events they sponsor and insure. What I don't know (and am hoping somebody does) is whether that has changed. I am not sure this will answer your question, but I had reached out to SafeSport asking why RB wasn't on their disciplinary list. Here is the response I received. "Mr. Butler is not on the U.S. Center for SafeSport’s publicly-searchable database because the U.S. Center for SafeSport was not the investigative agency that made Butler’s membership permanently ineligible. USA Volleyball investigated/adjudicated the matter and was the entity that made the disciplinary decision. You can find Mr. Butler on USAVB’s Suspended Membership List (https://www.teamusa.org/usa-volleyball/about-us/safesport/suspended-list). There may be a time that previously investigated individuals by other National Governing Bodies may be included in the Center’s database. At this point of time, the Center’s database only includes individuals that it has found violated the Code. Thanks for the question and please feel free to reach out if you have any other questions. Take care, Jocelyn Shafer " So I do not see how SafeSport would have any authority over RB given that they do not even list him. Translation: we don't want anything to do with that mess. USAV owns that one. We want to pretend to be the organization that is doing something about this, but not actually do anything about it.
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Post by JohnnyDrama on Dec 21, 2018 17:48:56 GMT -5
Not arguing with your post, but isn't the whole "USAV vs JVA competition" applicable to any club and any player that does ONLY USAV or ONLY JVA? There has certainly been top competition at both national tournaments the past few years with some clubs that do both. Put aside power league, since there are many top clubs in the country that do not even participate in a power league format in their respective areas. But most clubs will find the best competition to play regardless if it is USAV, JVA, or AAU sanctioned, so I do not think that any club that does not participate in any USAV events is preventing players from playing good competition. No, I as wrote above. Our club has played every top JVA-only team except SPRI. There are non-USAV crossover tourneys, and they have so far avoided them. Edit to add: Plus, as I noted in my original post, the competition already comes to them. The travel cost argument just doesn't fly. There is a qualifier literally in Chicago, but they won't play in it. The championships have been driving distance for 3 years in a row, but they have instead flown to Orlando. There is no legitimate reason to hold their teams out of that competition other than RB. You mean the qualifier in their backyard that did not have any 18s divisions? To go and qualify for something that they won’t even attend because they haven’t done so in a decade? I get what you’re saying. And I could reverse your question and ask why the top USAV only teams don’t participate in more JVA/AAU tournamengs because those teams are strong too. But you’re beating a dead horse that’s been dead horse that’s been dead for a decade. A few years ago (2016 I think) a TON of USAV only teams did both the GJNC and AAUs. But they could choose at anytime if they wanted to. No qualifier. No chasing a bid. They didn’t have to register for housing. Just show up and play. There’s also a reason AAUs in Orlando has been growing every year. Would you rather spend a week in Detroit or in Florida? (No offense to any Michigan residents) Strong teams and strong programs are always going to stick with what they’ve been doing for a long time. Parents love consistency. You know what tournaments you’re going to attend before the new year starts. You know when your season is going to end without wondering if you’re going to qualify or not. Why try to change the norm?
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Post by stevehorn on Dec 21, 2018 18:08:15 GMT -5
No, I as wrote above. Our club has played every top JVA-only team except SPRI. There are non-USAV crossover tourneys, and they have so far avoided them. Edit to add: Plus, as I noted in my original post, the competition already comes to them. The travel cost argument just doesn't fly. There is a qualifier literally in Chicago, but they won't play in it. The championships have been driving distance for 3 years in a row, but they have instead flown to Orlando. There is no legitimate reason to hold their teams out of that competition other than RB. You mean the qualifier in their backyard that did not have any 18s divisions? To go and qualify for something that they won’t even attend because they haven’t done so in a decade? I get what you’re saying. And I could reverse your question and ask why the top USAV only teams don’t participate in more JVA/AAU tournamengs because those teams are strong too. But you’re beating a dead horse that’s been dead horse that’s been dead for a decade. A few years ago (2016 I think) a TON of USAV only teams did both the GJNC and AAUs. But they could choose at anytime if they wanted to. No qualifier. No chasing a bid. They didn’t have to register for housing. Just show up and play. There’s also a reason AAUs in Orlando has been growing every year. Would you rather spend a week in Detroit or in Florida? (No offense to any Michigan residents) Strong teams and strong programs are always going to stick with what they’ve been doing for a long time. Parents love consistency. You know what tournaments you’re going to attend before the new year starts. You know when your season is going to end without wondering if you’re going to qualify or not. Why try to change the norm?
There is an 18s qualifier in Chicago which is held at an earlier date Almost all USAV qualifiers now have a separate tournament for the 18s since the 18s national championship is now held around the end of April.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2018 18:20:31 GMT -5
You mean the qualifier in their backyard that did not have any 18s divisions? To go and qualify for something that they won’t even attend because they haven’t done so in a decade? I mean both the qualifier in their backyard that was exclusively for the 18s divisions in january, as well as the general qualifier you are referring to where RB won't allow any of his 12U to 17U teams to participate, even though he doesn't coach them, there is no travel cost and the competition level is high. I get what you’re saying. And I could reverse your question and ask why the top USAV only teams don’t participate in more JVA/AAU tournamengs because those teams are strong too. They are. They created a JVA event in SoCal. SPRI won't go. They created the Preseason NIT. SPRI won't go. But you’re beating a dead horse that’s been dead horse that’s been dead for a decade. A few years ago (2016 I think) a TON of USAV only teams did both the GJNC and AAUs. But they could choose at anytime if they wanted to. No qualifier. No chasing a bid. They didn’t have to register for housing. Just show up and play. There’s also a reason AAUs in Orlando has been growing every year. Would you rather spend a week in Detroit or in Florida? (No offense to any Michigan residents) Many USAV teams go to AAUs if they are close by (OTVA) or don't have a GJNC bid. Kind of silly to complain about travel costs for tournaments from the midwest, and then go to Orlando instead of Indy or Detroit. I'm surely not here to defend stay to play. Strong teams and strong programs are always going to stick with what they’ve been doing for a long time. Parents love consistency. You know what tournaments you’re going to attend before the new year starts. You know when your season is going to end without wondering if you’re going to qualify or not. Why try to change the norm? The big lie to that argument is that SPRI abruptly stopped playing in USAV events in the past when they had been playing them for years, and clubs like KIVA and Munciana abruptly started playing in crossover events that SPRI still refuses to play in.
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