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Post by ironhammer on Jul 2, 2018 19:54:40 GMT -5
Can someone else answer my question please Lol he won't be able to.
We played our best roster for 5 weeks + the finals. Serbia, Brazil and China had star players missing. Netherlands was at full strength. Turkey is in a bit of a reloading phase - lots of new faces, but this may be their best roster considering many of their former best players have retired from the NT (Neslihan and Gozde for sure, maybe Naz as well). As usual, you don't know what you are talking about. But personal insults is your usual way of talking about me. No different to Shhhhhhhh. I have said repeatedly China's players are missing. Zhang Changning is not there due to recovery from surgery. Zeng Chunlei return to the roster for the finals but is not in form. Brazil also suffered from Natalia's absence. Their libero, Suelen Pinto, also had an arm fracture, preventing her play in the bronze medal game. But of course, actually looking up my posts is too hard for you eh? Oh and what about the whole thing abut blocking my post? You can't can you?
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Post by donut on Jul 2, 2018 19:55:31 GMT -5
You can "treat it like it's important" in more than one way... you can view it as good international competition AND a way to give some of our younger pipeline players more reps. I personally have lots of thoughts about this but here a few: - It's a dangerous mindset to focus solely on "we're going to win." Think about our first Turkey match - we made some subs to "save" the game, but for what purpose? Why not let those players on the court fight for that 3rd set? What good is it to say "our A-Team came in and almost saved our game against an inferior Turkish team?" Who's going to develop from that? - I am very wearisome of relying on an A-team where the average age will be close to (if not surpassing) 30 in Tokyo. And relying on back-ups who are around the same age, who (mostly) were never able to challenge for a starting position. - I don't see the value in sending our A-Team to beat up on teams like Germany and Argentina. - I think it's silly to drag players like 31-year-old Jordan Larson, who just played a long overseas season, around the world for 5 weeks, to again beat up on teams like Germany and Argentina (or even other "powers" who aren't playing at full strength). - I think it was strange to post a preliminary roster with players who obviously were never going to play (see: Megan Courtney and her injury). - I think being near-sighted and only being concerned about Tokyo 2020 (which is what's happening - how many of the VNL players will be legitimate contenders for 2024 spots?) will obviously hurt our future teams, and that's frustrating as a USA volleyball fan. - All-in-all I can't help but compare this year to 2010 - where Hugh put MAJOR investments into Jordan, Foluke, Megan, Destinee, Alisha, Miyashiro, Thompson, Cynthia, etc. He played them along side vets like Tom, Bown, Tamas, Haneef-Park, Sykora, etc. and that's why they are the players they are today (at least for the first 4-5 names). I don't understand sectioning off players into clear tiers - how will we ever know if the younger players are good enough for the A-Team, if they never play with the A-Team? It's weird to me that we're so system focused, that we're like "these 14 players will run the system from now until 2020" and then "14 new players will run the system from now until 2024." Because that's where I feel like we're headed and it isn't exciting to me as a fan. I understand ALL of that. But it doesn't address the question really. Why not send your best team to a tournament like this? I, for one, think it warranted it. I would have been fine with experimenting, too, but I think there are plenty of opportunities, such as the Pan Am Cup, for that. In short, I think this was a championship USAV can take pride in (and collect a bunch of money, too). I can see both sides of the argument. The one side I can't see is "Karch is a bad coach because he decided he wanted to play his best team and try to win." I also don't buy the "Karch and USAV don't develop players" claim. I think they've done a pretty damned good job of putting together top level teams and I don't think this happened in spite of the coaching. I think the coaching was a factor. Well, your question was vague. But in short, saying "we wanna win no matter what" and "let's develop our younger players" are, most likely, mutually exclusive. All of my points indicate I think developing players is more important at the VNL, in the short and long run, than winning an ultimately unimportant tournament for the sake of bragging rights/money/competitiveness/culture. Also, I'm excited for the Pan Am Cup - but I would have liked to see some of those players mixed in with our A-Team at this tournament, and get substantial playing time. Here's what I'm concerned about: let's say Lee and Washington (for argument's sake) have a great tournament. Cool, they pass test 1, but when do they get a chance at test 2 (playing with the A-Team)? I'd bet money on it not being at the World Cup, so it's going to be in 2019 (if ever), a year before Tokyo. That's a short timeline to develop "chemistry" with the rest of the A-Team, and again, I think Karch has pretty much made up his mind that this roster of "vets" is who he's taking to Tokyo. This means that the VNL was an important window to test these players, and we missed it. What if Anae, Lee, Mitchum, etc. have a higher ceiling than MBH or Kingdon, or even Larson or Hill? And they aren't getting serious investment until potentially 2020? THAT'S why I don't agree with just "bringing your best team." Because it's short-sighted and potentially rids us of finding a young rising superstar who could make a real difference in Tokyo. And regarding player development - still not sure why we brought Wilhite or JWO and to a lesser extent Hancock (and even Drews). What player do you think Karch has done a good job at developing since 2014? The YOUNGEST player who got substantial playing time this tournament was Dixon. I think most posters feel like Drews isn't the next USA starting opposite and also didn't really get that much playing time, and Wilhite and JWO each saw the floor in what, one leg?? And I'm sorry, USA's success is in large part is due to players such as Jordan, Alisha, Foluke, and Christa (in the Rio quad at least). I'll give Karch Kim Hill's development, but the rest of those players developed under Hugh, not Karch.
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Post by ironhammer on Jul 2, 2018 19:56:37 GMT -5
Sorry. In spite of volleyguy's protestations, I still think "Karch is a bad coach for trying to win" and "Karch is a bad coach because he won a tournament he was trying to win" are the same thing in shhhhh's argument. It is a bad argument from the outset. If they are real USA fans, why would they not want the NT to win the VNL? Because it is "irrelevant" as they claimed? Ha, that is really a weak argument. If you are in a position to win, why not do it? And not training younger players? I don't buy that either.
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Post by ironhammer on Jul 2, 2018 20:01:46 GMT -5
No it isn't. This isn't true. This is your own misunderstanding of my actual criticisms. There is no fundamental difference between criticizing someone for trying to win the tournament and winning the tournament. I already conceded you would think he was a WORSE coach if he had not won the tournament. But the fact remains that your primary gripe all along was that he should be focused more on developing other players (players YOU choose) than on winning this tournament. The fact he won it is just proof, to you, that his priorities are messed up.
I wouldn't have said anything had you not added the cheapshot about Morrison.There is no point debating Shhhhhhhhh, he is set in his ways, incapable of seeing the light. Nothing Karch does will ever satisfy him. Nothing whatsoever. And the biggest thing of all, he has a thin skin. He just cannot tolerate anyone disagreeing with him. So he resorts to personal insults and rudeness. His doppelganger, duncaroo, presents himself as a marginally more respectable poster, but is fundamentally cut from the same cloth (if not actually the same poster with different usernames). Notice how anything shhhhhhhh says, duncaroo will just jump in with support. That is very curious don't you think?
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Post by ironhammer on Jul 2, 2018 20:03:48 GMT -5
Why is Ruffda so bad at comprehending simple concepts? Also weird that he keeps attempting (and failing) to dictate the positions of my arguments for me, but I love my fans. You see what I mean Ruffda? Exhbit A of Shhhhhhhhh's usual conduct. When someone disagree with him, he resorts to personal insults. Just incapable of debating on the points. That is what the Karch haters resort to, when someone disagree with them, they resort to this usual trick. Very poor argument if you asked me.
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Post by ironhammer on Jul 2, 2018 20:07:50 GMT -5
I understand ALL of that. But it doesn't address the question really. Why not send your best team to a tournament like this? I, for one, think it warranted it. I would have been fine with experimenting, too, but I think there are plenty of opportunities, such as the Pan Am Cup, for that. In short, I think this was a championship USAV can take pride in (and collect a bunch of money, too). I can see both sides of the argument. The one side I can't see is "Karch is a bad coach because he decided he wanted to play his best team and try to win." I also don't buy the "Karch and USAV don't develop players" claim. I think they've done a pretty damned good job of putting together top level teams and I don't think this happened in spite of the coaching. I think the coaching was a factor. What if Anae, Lee, Mitchum, etc. have a higher ceiling than MBH or Kingdon, or even Larson or Hill? And they aren't getting serious investment until potentially 2020? THAT'S why I don't agree with just "bringing your best team." Because it's short-sighted and potentially rids us of finding a young rising superstar who could make a real difference in Tokyo. Oh really? Why not direct this at Netherlands too? They are got a full top-line roster at the VNL. Why not condemn them for not bringing in younger players? Lonneke Slöetjes, Laura Dijkema, Celeste Plak and Anne Buijs don't need the extra practice. Jamie Morrison must be nuts like Karch right?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2018 20:08:08 GMT -5
I don't hate shhhhhh. I actually like him. I don't like his Karch bias however. I think he goes too far with it. *provides zero examples of going "too far"*
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2018 20:09:24 GMT -5
You can "treat it like it's important" in more than one way... you can view it as good international competition AND a way to give some of our younger pipeline players more reps. I personally have lots of thoughts about this but here a few: - It's a dangerous mindset to focus solely on "we're going to win." Think about our first Turkey match - we made some subs to "save" the game, but for what purpose? Why not let those players on the court fight for that 3rd set? What good is it to say "our A-Team came in and almost saved our game against an inferior Turkish team?" Who's going to develop from that? - I am very wearisome of relying on an A-team where the average age will be close to (if not surpassing) 30 in Tokyo. And relying on back-ups who are around the same age, who (mostly) were never able to challenge for a starting position. - I don't see the value in sending our A-Team to beat up on teams like Germany and Argentina. - I think it's silly to drag players like 31-year-old Jordan Larson, who just played a long overseas season, around the world for 5 weeks, to again beat up on teams like Germany and Argentina (or even other "powers" who aren't playing at full strength). - I think it was strange to post a preliminary roster with players who obviously were never going to play (see: Megan Courtney and her injury). - I think being near-sighted and only being concerned about Tokyo 2020 (which is what's happening - how many of the VNL players will be legitimate contenders for 2024 spots?) will obviously hurt our future teams, and that's frustrating as a USA volleyball fan. - All-in-all I can't help but compare this year to 2010 - where Hugh put MAJOR investments into Jordan, Foluke, Megan, Destinee, Alisha, Miyashiro, Thompson, Cynthia, etc. He played them along side vets like Tom, Bown, Tamas, Haneef-Park, Sykora, etc. and that's why they are the players they are today (at least for the first 4-5 names). I don't understand sectioning off players into clear tiers - how will we ever know if the younger players are good enough for the A-Team, if they never play with the A-Team? It's weird to me that we're so system focused, that we're like "these 14 players will run the system from now until 2020" and then "14 new players will run the system from now until 2024." Because that's where I feel like we're headed and it isn't exciting to me as a fan. I understand ALL of that. But it doesn't address the question really. Why not send your best team to a tournament like this? I, for one, think it warranted it. I would have been fine with experimenting, too, but I think there are plenty of opportunities, such as the Pan Am Cup, for that. In short, I think this was a championship USAV can take pride in (and collect a bunch of money, too). I can see both sides of the argument. The one side I can't see is "Karch is a bad coach because he decided he wanted to play his best team and try to win." I also don't buy the "Karch and USAV don't develop players" claim. I think they've done a pretty damned good job of putting together top level teams and I don't think this happened in spite of the coaching. I think the coaching was a factor. Thanks for your input. You've clearly articulated your point. This means you're done now, right?
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Post by ironhammer on Jul 2, 2018 20:11:55 GMT -5
I don't hate shhhhhh. I actually like him. I don't like his Karch bias however. I think he goes too far with it. *provides zero examples of going "too far"* So shhhhhhhh, what is your problem with posters who disagree with you? Does that hurt your ego? Did your parents neglect you when you were young? Were you bullied? Developed envy and jealousy with people who had better life chances? What is your problem?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2018 20:12:42 GMT -5
I don't think my question was vague, at all. But in the interest of clarity, let me address some of this. Well, your question was vague. But in short, saying "we wanna win no matter what" and "let's develop our younger players" are, most likely, mutually exclusive. This is a misrepresentation of my point. I never said "we wanna win no matter what." I asked about THIS SPECIFIC TOURNAMENT. They can try to win it with their best team and still develop players. I have never bought the argument that inexperienced players needed to play in the VNL or they will not develop. I still don't. I realize that. But you do understand that I was asking why you think it is "ultimately unimportant." I don't think "bragging rights" enter into anything. Money, competitiveness and culture are important, however. As is team chemistry and confidence. I think all of this was to be gained, and probably was. For starters, MBH was no lock for Tokyo. She may be now, based on her performance. I still don't see why people ignore what we DID get from this tournament: 1) MBH is probably legit; 2) KRob can play libero (although that could still change); 3) Dixon is regaining her form; 4) Lloyd was able to set this team to gold; 5) the opposite still needs help. I think people can impress in the gym. How the hell did MBH make her way to the A team if not there? Lastly, why are we completely rebuilding a team that is damned good as is? Do you honestly think any of those players are ready to supplant the NT starters? (Yes, I know this is a chicken and egg thing, but -- cripes -- they are just out of college.) I cannot speak to the reasons why these players were brought along. I do know Wilhite was a great college player her senior season and has been in the program a while. They must have liked what they saw. I still think JWO has a shot. Did I specify Karch? No, I did not. Although he was on Hugh's staff. Players do not go straight from college to NT starters unless they are truly special, like Tom (who was in USAV while in college). All of those players improved in USAV. I am not downplaying their talent. But I sure as hell am not downplaying their training either. If we've circled back to Karch, fine. But my view on him remains the same: The criticism is over the top. He's not the best in the world, but he knows that and he is constantly trying to be better. Criticism is warranted. Some of the stuff on VT? Uncalled for.
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Post by ironhammer on Jul 2, 2018 20:13:41 GMT -5
I understand ALL of that. But it doesn't address the question really. Why not send your best team to a tournament like this? I, for one, think it warranted it. I would have been fine with experimenting, too, but I think there are plenty of opportunities, such as the Pan Am Cup, for that. In short, I think this was a championship USAV can take pride in (and collect a bunch of money, too). I can see both sides of the argument. The one side I can't see is "Karch is a bad coach because he decided he wanted to play his best team and try to win." I also don't buy the "Karch and USAV don't develop players" claim. I think they've done a pretty damned good job of putting together top level teams and I don't think this happened in spite of the coaching. I think the coaching was a factor. Thanks for your input. You've clearly articulated your point. This means you're done now, right? Is VT your exclusive forum? Are you the moderator? Did you paid to set up this forum? What right do you have to tell others they are "done"? They have the right to post just as much as you.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2018 20:14:32 GMT -5
I don't hate shhhhhh. I actually like him. I don't like his Karch bias however. I think he goes too far with it. *provides zero examples of going "too far"* Seriously?? And thinks for questioning my intelligence again. Can't get enough of that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2018 20:16:02 GMT -5
*again, provides zero examples of any "over the top" or "uncalled for" criticisms, despite that being literally the entire foundation of his argument*
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2018 20:18:12 GMT -5
*provides zero examples of going "too far"* And thinks for questioning my intelligence again. You have such an active imagination. And you completely make things up. Like this.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2018 20:18:30 GMT -5
*again, provides zero examples of any "over the top" or "uncalled for" criticisms, despite that being literally the entire foundation of his argument* I ask again: seriously?? I am not going to go back through these threads and pull up your quotes. Everyone on here knows how what I am talking about, even if they agree with you.
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