|
Post by HappyVolley on Dec 7, 2019 18:43:55 GMT -5
We know, scientifically, that people with specific genetic profiles have genetic advantages when it comes to specific athletic activities. Be careful what you ask for here, lest you start finding yourself arguing that, for example, Kenyans need to be banned from Olympic marathons in the name of fairness to all the other athletes. Leave it to mikegarrison to "transitition" the serious into the absurd.
|
|
|
Post by HappyVolley on Dec 7, 2019 18:45:58 GMT -5
They would and do, clearly have an advantage. This part, is fact, not opinion. Please provide empirical evidence of this. There are minimal studies on the issue. Citing cycling/CT running/whatever else is not fact, it is cherrypicking. If you can find a study, I would be glad to see it, honestly. It would validate all of my googling on the issue. How's this for empirical evidence? Thousands of years of human history.
|
|
|
Post by mikegarrison on Dec 7, 2019 18:47:32 GMT -5
We know, scientifically, that people with specific genetic profiles have genetic advantages when it comes to specific athletic activities. Be careful what you ask for here, lest you start finding yourself arguing that, for example, Kenyans need to be banned from Olympic marathons in the name of fairness to all the other athletes. Leave it to mikegarrison to "transitition" the serious into the absurd. It's exactly the same argument, but with a lot more actual data behind it. If you feel that it is absurd, then maybe you ought to consider what that means for the argument about trans athletes.
|
|
|
Post by HappyVolley on Dec 7, 2019 19:05:26 GMT -5
Leave it to mikegarrison to "transitition" the serious into the absurd. It's exactly the same argument, but with a lot more actual data behind it. If you feel that it is absurd, then maybe you ought to consider what that means for the argument about trans athletes. It is absolutely not the same argument. Nobody has suggested that Kenyans be banned from international distance running competition, because they do not have an unfair advantage. The Kenyans (and others from that region) have enhanced the sport. They have caused others to improve their training techniques, diets, training environments, etc.
No such enhancement to women's sports is possible. Biological male athletes simply have intrinsic advantages for which biological female athletes will never be able to overcome.
|
|
|
Post by ballervolley on Dec 7, 2019 19:07:41 GMT -5
just create a third and fourth sex category and have trans women and men compete against trans women and men. to me thats as fair as its going to get without everyone bitching.
|
|
|
Post by clob on Dec 7, 2019 19:19:22 GMT -5
I must have missed all those stories about trans athletes winning all those women's championships and dominating their sport.
I'd almost say this is Russian bots trying to stir something up.
|
|
|
Post by volleyball303 on Dec 7, 2019 19:43:58 GMT -5
Geez, it's not even the offseason. This will be my only post on this, because I'm hoping it fades away to the second page once the tournament games start tonight. It's a f*cking game compared to someone's identity/life, and all of these inflated/dramatic fears about "biological boys are going to beat my biological girl daughter!!!!" really just demonstrates misplaced values and a lack of empathy. So if it’s just “a f*cking game” why is it so important to them? This argument itself is contradictory. I am all for everyone living whatever life they want. Let’s work towards making a transgender woman league. It will take many years but maybe it one day will grow to something like what women’s sports have become.
|
|
|
Post by clob on Dec 7, 2019 19:52:58 GMT -5
Mods, can this be moved to the Politics forum?
It offers nothing to this board.
It's a solution in search of a problem. Much like the Carolina bathroom bills.
|
|
|
Post by mikegarrison on Dec 7, 2019 19:54:33 GMT -5
It's exactly the same argument, but with a lot more actual data behind it. If you feel that it is absurd, then maybe you ought to consider what that means for the argument about trans athletes. It is absolutely not the same argument. Nobody has suggested that Kenyans be banned from international distance running competition, because they do not have an unfair advantage. The Kenyans (and others from that region) have enhanced the sport. They have caused others to improve their training techniques, diets, training environments, etc. This is simply not true. I suggest you might want to look into the studies of genetics and sports performance more carefully before you start making claims about it. Genetic advantage is not the only reason why people from the East African highlands have been so successful in distance running, but it 100% certainly plays a part. For that matter, genetics plays a big role in terms of which women end up 6-5 and which end up 5-6, and we know that makes a hell of a lot of difference in volleyball. Some people simply do have genetic advantages or disadvantages in particular sports. It is completely arbitrary to lump all women together and say "this is a fair genetic pool for competition". Any argument about genetic advantage will always come down to a social choice about which advantages are considered "fair" and which are considered "unfair". The argument against trans athletes on a genetic fairness basis is one where you draw a socially-determined arbitrary line, not anything inherently determined by science.
|
|
|
Post by mikegarrison on Dec 7, 2019 19:55:49 GMT -5
Mods, can this be moved to the Politics forum? There is no Politics forum. I'm fine with banning this thread and all future discussions of this issue if people like, but I'm not fine with saying only people with one point of view on the subject have a right to make that point of view.
|
|
|
Post by bball on Dec 7, 2019 19:57:44 GMT -5
I agree Rook Dan Rettke should be barred from Wisconsin Dan Rettke needs to be DNA'd
|
|
|
Post by HappyVolley on Dec 7, 2019 20:02:15 GMT -5
It is absolutely not the same argument. Nobody has suggested that Kenyans be banned from international distance running competition, because they do not have an unfair advantage. The Kenyans (and others from that region) have enhanced the sport. They have caused others to improve their training techniques, diets, training environments, etc. This is simply not true. I suggest you might want to look into the studies of genetics and sports performance more carefully before you start making claims about it. Genetic advantage is not the only reason why people from the East African highlands have been so successful in distance running, but it 100% certainly plays a part. For that matter, genetics plays a big role in terms of which women end up 6-5 and which end up 5-6, and we know that makes a hell of a lot of difference in volleyball. Some people simply do have genetic advantages or disadvantages in particular sports. It is completely arbitrary to lump all women together and say "this is a fair genetic pool for competition". Any argument about genetic advantage will always come down to a social choice about which advantages are considered "fair" and which are considered "unfair". The argument against trans athletes on a genetic fairness basis is one where you draw a socially-determined arbitrary line, not anything inherently determined by science. First, I did not make the argument that the success of East Africans in distance running is attributable entirely to genetics. I suggested quite the opposite.
Second, the genetic differences in the pool of females are far smaller than the genetic differences between men and women. Skeletal structure, hormonal composition, endurance, muscle mass are just a few of the documented differences between men and women. To say that the only difference between male and female athletes is social convention is a denial of science and irrational to the point of insanity.
|
|
rook
Sophomore
Posts: 180
|
Post by rook on Dec 7, 2019 21:49:41 GMT -5
It is absolutely not the same argument. Nobody has suggested that Kenyans be banned from international distance running competition, because they do not have an unfair advantage. The Kenyans (and others from that region) have enhanced the sport. They have caused others to improve their training techniques, diets, training environments, etc. This is simply not true. I suggest you might want to look into the studies of genetics and sports performance more carefully before you start making claims about it. Genetic advantage is not the only reason why people from the East African highlands have been so successful in distance running, but it 100% certainly plays a part. For that matter, genetics plays a big role in terms of which women end up 6-5 and which end up 5-6, and we know that makes a hell of a lot of difference in volleyball. Some people simply do have genetic advantages or disadvantages in particular sports. It is completely arbitrary to lump all women together and say "this is a fair genetic pool for competition". Any argument about genetic advantage will always come down to a social choice about which advantages are considered "fair" and which are considered "unfair". The argument against trans athletes on a genetic fairness basis is one where you draw a socially-determined arbitrary line, not anything inherently determined by science. So, why not just get rid of the distinction altogether, if it’s arbitrary? Let’s just have Volleyball, Basketball, Soccer. Oh wait, we used to have that and you know who didn’t play sports? Women.... There is plenty of scientific evidence that sites the tremendous, inherent difference between men and women, as many have already noted. But let’s compare apples to apples here. The 6’5” men’s college volleyball player is probably more powerful, faster, and jumps a heck of a lot higher than the 6’5” women’s player. I’d wager that the 5’6” men’s libero probably touches higher than most of the 6’5” female players. But I can also just look at results. The fastest man in the world ran the 100m nearly a second faster than the women’s record. In fact, the top 25-30 times ever are a full half second faster than the fastest women’s time. The best men’s volleyball players in the world jump a foot to a foot and a half higher than the best female players. You think that women don’t play college football because it’s not allowed or no one has tried? Imagine if LeBron James spent two years transitioning, what would he do in the WNBA (thank you Dave Chapelle). There are massive difference between men and women...and you know what? That’s really, really cool! And it’s great that we have opportunities for both to compete. No one is saying trans athletes shouldn’t be allowed to compete in sports...but they should compete according to their biological sex. If it’s really arbitrary, then let’s go all the way and just have sports, no men’s sports, no women’s sports. There are plenty of men who would love to have more scholarship opportunities.
|
|
|
Post by clob on Dec 7, 2019 22:04:54 GMT -5
Dear Troll,
There's a ton of great games on right now. Maybe watch some of them instead of trying to create a political controversy about an issue WHICH HAS NEVER HAPPENED.
Thanks,
Intelligent People in this World
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2019 22:15:34 GMT -5
I agree Rook Dan Rettke should be barred from Wisconsin Dan Rettke needs to be DNA'd What the hell is the matter with you
|
|