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Post by ironhammer on Apr 16, 2024 22:58:09 GMT -5
No offense, but sorry, I just don't buy your claim in how you can easily predicted what was in store for her exactly or the manner in which the episode ended. If you don't like how she died, that's your choice. But if you don't get how that advanced the plot, well, I guess you weren't really paying attention to the episode and what Mariko said...hehehe. Well, you guessed wrong. My point was her death is a central element of the plot, and the manner of her death is a corollary. Well, let's just say I beg to differ on that point, hehehe. The manner she met her fate...you said you didn't quite get what purpose that serves in the plot though, just now? In fact, I think that is crucial...it revealed to all the duplicity of Ishido and is a much bigger motivating factor for all the important families and clan to turn against Ishido. This I might add, also parallels real history. Hosokawa Gracia (Mariko's real-life counter-part) met her fate when Ishida Mitsunari (the real-life counter-part that Ishido was based on), attempted to kidnap her to hold her for ransom. But Gracia would not lose honor that way so chose to meet her fate instead. The blowback was so great that many important clans abandoned Ishida and switch sides.
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Post by volleyguy on Apr 16, 2024 23:29:06 GMT -5
Well, you guessed wrong. My point was her death is a central element of the plot, and the manner of her death is a corollary. Well, let's just say I beg to differ on that point, hehehe. The manner she met her fate...you said you didn't quite get what purpose that serves in the plot though, just now? In fact, I think that is crucial...it revealed to all the duplicity of Ishido and is a much bigger motivating factor for all the important families and clan to turn against Ishido. This I might add, also parallels real history. Hosokawa Gracia (Mariko's real-life counter-part) met her fate when Ishida Mitsunari (the real-life counter-part that Ishido was based on), attempted to kidnap her to hold her for ransom. But Gracia would not lose honor that way so chose to meet her fate instead. The blowback was so great that many important clans abandoned Ishida and switch sides. I think you’re misunderstanding my point. The purpose of Mariko’s death is to rally the royal families to revolt against Ishido. Ochiba understood this. So the attack against Mariko, and Yabushige’s complicity, sealed that narrative. I am saying that Mariko’s proclamation as she stands in front of the door doesn’t advance that particular plot point. She doesn’t finish the statement, and it is only heard by whoever survives the blast. That scene basically explains it to the viewer. But, it also re-enforces what Mariko says to Ochiba, “A flower is a flower because it falls.” Or in other words, Mariko would in a sense seek her own death, as foreshadowed in the opening scene.
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Post by akbar on Apr 17, 2024 5:32:13 GMT -5
Mariko's death marks the beginning of a new era in Japan.
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Post by ironhammer on Apr 17, 2024 19:49:29 GMT -5
Well, let's just say I beg to differ on that point, hehehe. The manner she met her fate...you said you didn't quite get what purpose that serves in the plot though, just now? In fact, I think that is crucial...it revealed to all the duplicity of Ishido and is a much bigger motivating factor for all the important families and clan to turn against Ishido. This I might add, also parallels real history. Hosokawa Gracia (Mariko's real-life counter-part) met her fate when Ishida Mitsunari (the real-life counter-part that Ishido was based on), attempted to kidnap her to hold her for ransom. But Gracia would not lose honor that way so chose to meet her fate instead. The blowback was so great that many important clans abandoned Ishida and switch sides. I am saying that Mariko’s proclamation as she stands in front of the door doesn’t advance that particular plot point. She doesn’t finish the statement, and it is only heard by whoever survives the blast. I think she choose to die by standing right by the door and shield the blast from the rest, that's the crucial point. Had she step back, she might have lived. But she choose death over the dishonor of being captured. Then the survivors can now witness and testify to her last words even if her sentence did not finish...confirming Ishido's duplicity.
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Post by volleyguy on Apr 17, 2024 20:18:49 GMT -5
I am saying that Mariko’s proclamation as she stands in front of the door doesn’t advance that particular plot point. She doesn’t finish the statement, and it is only heard by whoever survives the blast. I think she choose to die by standing right by the door and shield the blast from the rest, that's the crucial point. Had she step back, she might have lived. But she choose death over the dishonor of being captured. Then the survivors can now witness and testify to her last words even if her sentence did not finish...confirming Ishido's duplicty. I've since re-watched the episode, and I think that Mariko takes the opportunity to finally achieve death, but now, it may not be a true suicide and a mortal sin, a conflict between her japanese and catholic beliefs that was highlighted several times in the episode.
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Post by volleyguy on Apr 17, 2024 20:42:38 GMT -5
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Post by ironhammer on Apr 17, 2024 21:00:47 GMT -5
"A flower is only a flower when it falls off", not only is that poetic, but there are several layers of meaning to that phrase. On one layer, Mariko as the metaphor for the flower is only valuable when she dies, confirming her determination to do what she needs to do. On another layer, its an observation of the transient nature of beauty and life, a very Buddhist philosophical worldview. Remember, Japanese culture is highly influenced by Buddhism (and Zen Budhhism at that), many in the samurai class were devoted Buddhists. Buddhism believe that nothing is truly permanent or everlasting. Including flowers and the beauty of youth, they don't last. So to try and hold onto impermanence is the wrong path. Thus Mariko accepts that her life isn't permanent in any case and at some point will end eventually, so why not die then for a worthwhile cause (make Torananga win by showing Ishido's duplicity).
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Post by ironhammer on Apr 22, 2024 7:47:51 GMT -5
Shogun series finale is coming up tomorrow:
I really wonder if they could wrap everything up neatly given the shock twist ending to episode 9, that's gonna be a challenge.
Some folks were speculating whether there will be a season 2 to Shogun, I doubt that will happen, as the miniseries does cover the bulk of the story in the novel. That being said, there other books in James Clavell's "Asian Saga". "Shogun" is Clavell's most famous novel, but he also wrote other novels in the series, like "King Rat", "Tai-Pan", "Noble House", "Gai-jin", etc. Those novels are all loosely connected to Shogun as part of the "Asian Saga", so could be adapted if the producers want to.
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Post by volleyguy on Apr 23, 2024 21:27:30 GMT -5
Definitely the best series since Game of Thrones, and one of my favorites ever. I won't spoil the finale just yet, but even though it was not what I expected, it was perfect.
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Post by akbar on Apr 24, 2024 5:03:30 GMT -5
Definitely the best series since Game of Thrones, and one of my favorites ever. I won't spoil the finale just yet, but even though it was not what I expected, it was perfect. Absolutely 💯 agree. Loved it. Perfect ending.
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Post by ironhammer on Apr 24, 2024 5:10:24 GMT -5
Definitely the best series since Game of Thrones, and one of my favorites ever. I won't spoil the finale just yet, but even though it was not what I expected, it was perfect. I read the book, so I knew what was coming. The "flash forward" sequence was interesting.
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Post by ironhammer on Apr 24, 2024 20:00:23 GMT -5
I finish watching the series finale of Shogun. Overall, I enjoyed the series. The finale, my wife complained was a little anti-climatic, but Shogun was never about the big battles but more about the scheming and the drama. So the character's fate really hits hard. In the final episode, Yabu gets his just deserts. Omi steps out from his uncle's shadow. Blackthorne comes to terms with living in Japan. And Toranaga unveils his master plan all along. Interesting enough, Toranaga comes off a bit like a villain in how he sacrifices his "chess pieces". But he says its for the greater good and to usher in an era of peace. The ends justifies the means for him I guess.
Some minor complaints...the action scenes can be a bit too dark and hard to see. But otherwise, not a bad series at all.
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Post by volleyguy on Apr 24, 2024 20:22:26 GMT -5
For most people, the fact that there is no actual final battle scene is probably unexpected and extremely disappointing. But it some ways, that fact makes it true to form (for this series) and perhaps more authentically Japanese.
It wasn’t clear whether the sequence at the beginning involving Blackthorne clutching the rosary on his deathbed was a dream or a flash forward, and only when we see him drop the rosary in the sea do we realize it must have been a dream.
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