|
Post by bunnywailer on Jan 17, 2007 23:27:22 GMT -5
Uhm, hello, do you people not read? I clearly made the distinction between ELITE JO Club ball and regular club ball. My arguments were directed at the ELITE JO club ball aspect that everyone loves to talk about on VT, and from which this thread got its genesis. Go all the way back to the beginning - does the thread say "I went to court 17 and watched some mid-level kids play a spirited game that was competitive and hard fought." or did it say "I saw so-and-so from <elite club #1> and a bunch of college coaches from <powerhouse program #1 and <powerhouse program #4> watching her. Later on I saw the rest of the <powerhouse college coaching fraternity> sitting around having iced vanilla lattes at the snack bar."
No, Charlie, volleyball would not be good ONLY if all athletes were from economically disadvantaged families. Volleyball would be BETTER if the OPPORTUNITIES EXISTED for all athletes from all socio-economic and cultural backgrounds from ALL AREAS OF THIS COUNTRY to have the chance to play and be coached by knowledgeable and proficient coaches.
Do all of you "volleyball is in a hunky-dory state in the USA" folks want to affirm that club and JO volleyball is accessible to all social, economic, and ethnic/cultural/geographic classes? Do you want to go on record and say that majority of all club and JO girls athletes are NOT white, suburban, and upper middle class? Why doesn't USAV publicize its participation data better? Has it ever done a diversity study of its junior participation? I'd LOVE to see the figures.
|
|
|
Post by cyberVBmidwest on Jan 17, 2007 23:33:02 GMT -5
Do all of you "volleyball is in a hunky-dory state in the USA" folks want to affirm that club and JO volleyball is accessible to all social, economic, and ethnic/cultural/geographic classes? Do you want to go on record and say that majority of all club and JO girls athletes are NOT white, suburban, and upper middle class? Why doesn't USAV publicize its participation data better? Has it ever done a diversity study of its junior participation? I'd LOVE to see the figures. Are you coaching youth now? If the answer is NO, then how long has it been (if ever) since you have spent time coaching a youth team? Your honest response will help me respond... I will check for your response in the morning. I am out of town and it is approaching midnight and I need my beauty rest...![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
|
|
|
Post by bunnywailer on Jan 17, 2007 23:48:08 GMT -5
As a matter of fact, I will be coaching a USYVL team in the spring season in our town when that starts up again in about 2 months.
I have had two coaching stints at the high school level, most recently from 2004-2005. I had to resign last fall's season because work travel kept me on the road for 2 months right in the middle of the high school season.
In 2001 and 2002 I ran a low-cost club in our community that went to 2 out of the 3 mandatory SCVA tournaments. We had 2 16-under teams and 1 18-under team, I ended up coaching all three when my other volunteer coaches had to bow out (one got transferred for his job, and the other was in the military and ended TDY to Alabama for 4 months halfway through club season). I charged a whopping 100 bucks for the entire season of club. We had some advantages in that I was able to get free gym time for about 1/2 the season (the other half we used a community multi-use facility which I ended up paying for out-of-pocket when the money ran out)No coach got paid anything. As club director I got paid nothing. The 100 bucks covered USAV registration and uniforms (t-shirts). We ran out of money in the club account after the 1st tournament so I paid the second one for the 2 teams that went out of my own pocket.
Our diversity breakdown in the club (I went back and looked at team pics) was:
23 total athletes
13 White 4 Hmong 3 Vietnamese 2 African American 1 Hispanic
So yeah, I think I know a little bit about at least trying to do things differently.
|
|
|
Post by BearClause on Jan 17, 2007 23:59:05 GMT -5
Uhm, hello, do you people not read? I clearly made the distinction between ELITE JO Club ball and regular club ball. My arguments were directed at the ELITE JO club ball aspect that everyone loves to talk about on VT, and from which this thread got its genesis. Go all the way back to the beginning - does the thread say "I went to court 17 and watched some mid-level kids play a spirited game that was competitive and hard fought." or did it say "I saw so-and-so from <elite club #1> and a bunch of college coaches from <powerhouse program #1 and <powerhouse program #4> watching her. Later on I saw the rest of the <powerhouse college coaching fraternity> sitting around having iced vanilla lattes at the snack bar." The reason why I was hanging around that particular court was because I knew the coach and have seen several of the GB 18-1 players play in HS. However - the primary discussion on this board is NCAA D-I women's volleyball. If I mentioned the college-bound players and college coaches here, it's because that's who I think readers here might be interested in. When Sisam reports about competition in Turkey or Europe, she's sure to mention which teams have players from NCAA D-I programs. I don't see the problem since college VB is the primary topic on this board. I started the morning watching the first game of GB 16-1, although I don't remember the opponent. That was court 24, and the team was seeded somewhere in the high 30's. I've known their head coach for years, have watched his assistant for a couple years in high school, and watched their other assistant (Caity Noonan) set at Cal for 3+ years. They have a lanky 6'4" player who isn't quite polished yet, but seems to be developing along well and should learn a lot from these coaches. I did spend a little time watching the other teams in pool 1. I watched a Point Break team play a Delta Valley team. I don't know if any of their players are college bound and don't care. I just didn't say anything about them because I don't have a roster sheet and I didn't think anyone would be all that interested in my description of a team where I couldn't name a single player. Here are a couple of photos I took of that: ![](http://www.pbase.com/bearclause/image/73024917.jpg) ![](http://www.pbase.com/bearclause/image/73024919.jpg)
|
|
|
Post by bunnywailer on Jan 18, 2007 0:18:08 GMT -5
BearClause, I sincerely apologize that I had to use your post to get my point across. I do realize this was your first-ever club tourney and that seeing some of the people you saw in that gym must have been pretty exciting. I also remember some of my "firsts" in volleyball, when I got to meet alot of the people you read about in Volleyball Mag or saw on TV in the Olympics, or on the AVP, or in NCAA championship matches.
There is nothing inherently wrong with following volleyball from the NCAA D-1 perspective, or JO ball with the upcoming future D-1 superstars you will see at some of the bigger tourneys. However, beyond that, there is a side to club ball that no one likes to talk about, and that is the point I am trying to make.
To those who say "it ain't all about the scholarship" in club ball, I say bullcrap. Yes, maybe 10% of all JO athletes will actually get scholarships to play ball beyond high school and club. And yes, there are alot of JO clubs out there that are smaller and focused on player development. However, go to any major club out there and examine where its focus, energy, and resources are channelled. They are channelled at the 10% of the athletes they are pushing towards college scholarships. That's why these clubs have positions called "recruiting coordinators". While there may be teams in each age division that go all the way down to the 16-5, 16-6, and 16-8 teams, the best coaching and the major investment is always towards the 16-1 squad. The rest of the teams provide working capital to pay these high powered club coaches.
And, realistically, at just the average club level, who can really afford to pay 1.5k to 2k per season to send their kids to play club ball?
|
|
|
Post by baersgo on Jan 18, 2007 0:32:29 GMT -5
I think your generalizations stink.
We are a club in a very diverse area and we find other resources to pay for any kid who can't afford it. I can think of at least two kids on every team where this situation occurs. Some are high profile players that are talked about, others are not. It doesn't really matter to us. If they make a team, we find a way to help them pay the costs. Many of these kids are striving for scholarships because they NEED them in order to attend college.
While volleyball has been a traditionally upper/middle class sport, many clubs are trying to do their part to make it a sport for any athlete who wants to play.
|
|
|
Post by BearClause on Jan 18, 2007 1:10:40 GMT -5
BearClause, I sincerely apologize that I had to use your post to get my point across. I do realize this was your first-ever club tourney and that seeing some of the people you saw in that gym must have been pretty exciting. I also remember some of my "firsts" in volleyball, when I got to meet alot of the people you read about in Volleyball Mag or saw on TV in the Olympics, or on the AVP, or in NCAA championship matches. Exciting. Not really. I know the names/faces of nearly all those coaches because I've seen their teams play many times. I've talked to a few of them, so it was no big deal. I know Ruben Nieves personally (he actually noticed me first) and he's too much of a regular down to earth guy for me to be in awe of him. Really - I mentioned the college coaches because I thought others would be interested. I did find the way the college coaches set up and chatted up with the competition interesting. I'd never seen Mick Haley smile for more than 2 seconds, so that was a shock. I've only seen college coaches recruiting a few times. While I'm not in awe of them, it was different seeing them in that environment as observers.
|
|
|
Post by bunnywailer on Jan 18, 2007 1:17:42 GMT -5
I think your generalizations stink. We are a club in a very diverse area and we find other resources to pay for any kid who can't afford it. I can think of at least two kids on every team where this situation occurs. Some are high profile players that are talked about, others are not. It doesn't really matter to us. If they make a team, we find a way to help them pay the costs. Many of these kids are striving for scholarships because they NEED them in order to attend college. While volleyball has been a traditionally upper/middle class sport, many clubs are trying to do their part to make it a sport for any athlete who wants to play. Well, cough it up, then. How exactly do you "find a way to help them pay the costs"? Do you personally reach into your pocket and pay for their club fees? Do you doctor up the books to make things balance out at the end? Do you charge the paying athletes and their families more in club dues to make up for the ones that need to be "helped out"? Nobody NEEDS an athletic scholarship to go to college. What crack are you smoking? There are an infinite number of BETTER ways to get to college when you don't have the resources to pay for it. Does ACADEMIC ACHIEVEMENT ring a bell? How about FINANCIAL AID and GRANTS? Needs an athletic scholarship to go to college. Woo hoo. Good one. I'm hearing all kinds of messed up arguments justifying club ball now.
|
|
|
Post by bunnywailer on Jan 18, 2007 1:39:22 GMT -5
I will end my discussion on club volleyball with these thoughts. None of these arguments are new or earth shattering. While participation numbers in JO ball have risen significantly in the past 20 years, diversity numbers have not. Costs have certainly risen for club sports in general (not just for volleyball) as sports have become the new measuring sticks for achievement oriented parents to measure their kids against their peers. If you have the time, you should do some digging and find the 2003 Newsweek article on private club sports and see how pervasive the phenomenon has become. Volleyball in the USA has made no major strides in the past 20 years. At the youth level, in communities nationwide, there are vehicles for youth soccer, baseball, football, and basketball. Programs that are community-based and do not require extensive travelling to major tournaments, or costs that are out of the realm of what is reasonable for the average American family. There are none for volleyball, save for some exceptional programs like the USYVL. Junior Olympic volleyball is not the answer for teaching youth how to play volleyball - the cost is prohibitive for all but a minor percentage of the overall population. I don't care if clubs have one or two athletes that are "helped out" to play and potentially get a college scholarship - the only discriminator that allowed these athletes to be helped out and others to not be helped out is that they had the talent to make a club team in the first place. That is not opportunity - that is the club bettering itself. Volleyball will never make inroads in the USA until it becomes a true participation sport for everyone across the board - including the youth and junior level. Right now it is not. EDIT: It wasn't Newsweek. It was in US News and World Report. Article linked here: www.usnews.com/usnews/culture/articles/040607/7sports_7.htm
|
|
|
Post by Murina on Jan 18, 2007 1:46:03 GMT -5
Well, cough it up, then. How exactly do you "find a way to help them pay the costs"? Do you personally reach into your pocket and pay for their club fees? Do you doctor up the books to make things balance out at the end? Do you charge the paying athletes and their families more in club dues to make up for the ones that need to be "helped out"? Nobody NEEDS an athletic scholarship to go to college. What crack are you smoking? There are an infinite number of BETTER ways to get to college when you don't have the resources to pay for it. Does ACADEMIC ACHIEVEMENT ring a bell? How about FINANCIAL AID and GRANTS? Needs an athletic scholarship to go to college. Woo hoo. Good one. I'm hearing all kinds of messed up arguments justifying club ball now. Now you're going to argue that school and athletics shouldn't be tied together... Oh wait, that's my arguement! ;D
|
|
|
Post by bunnywailer on Jan 18, 2007 1:59:20 GMT -5
Well, cough it up, then. How exactly do you "find a way to help them pay the costs"? Do you personally reach into your pocket and pay for their club fees? Do you doctor up the books to make things balance out at the end? Do you charge the paying athletes and their families more in club dues to make up for the ones that need to be "helped out"? Nobody NEEDS an athletic scholarship to go to college. What crack are you smoking? There are an infinite number of BETTER ways to get to college when you don't have the resources to pay for it. Does ACADEMIC ACHIEVEMENT ring a bell? How about FINANCIAL AID and GRANTS? Needs an athletic scholarship to go to college. Woo hoo. Good one. I'm hearing all kinds of messed up arguments justifying club ball now. Now you're going to argue that school and athletics shouldn't be tied together... Oh wait, that's my arguement! ;D Murina, I actually had the opportunity to spend time with the local town's volleyball club when I lived in Sicily. I much prefer that environment and how the club is inclusive of everyone from the top team all the way down to the youngest athletes. The younger ones learn from watching the older ones. And nobody is paying 1200 Euros (at least I don't think they are) to be a member fo their local club program.
|
|
|
Post by chancelucky on Jan 18, 2007 14:24:24 GMT -5
Re: athletic vs. academic scholarships
You have to be a much better student than volleyball player to get a full scholarship. It probably says a lot about our culture, but I'm pretty sure it's true.
|
|
|
Post by bunnywailer on Jan 18, 2007 15:49:51 GMT -5
Re: athletic vs. academic scholarships You have to be a much better student than volleyball player to get a full scholarship. It probably says a lot about our culture, but I'm pretty sure it's true. Also a myth. This excerpt is from the article I quote earlier in this thread: Much of the problem, Holzinger and others say, stems from coaches. "You'd be surprised," Holzinger says, "by how many parents are really impressed when a coach tells them, 'I'll have your child in a scholarship; stick with this program.' " What parents don't understand, and what the coaches don't tell them, are the real numbers. Dan Doyle, a former collegiate basketball player and head coach, is the executive director of the Institute for International Sport at the University of Rhode Island. For his forthcoming book, The Encyclopedia of Sports Parenting (to be published in September 2005), Doyle's research team surveyed young basketball players. Using data from nationally affiliated basketball leagues, they estimated that the total number of fourth-grade boys playing organized basketball was about 475,000. At the same time, the team found, only 87,000 teens were playing basketball as seniors in high school. Of the 87,000, they say, 1,560 will win Division I college scholarships, 1,350 will get Division II scholarships, and 1,400 more will play at Division III schools. And of those 4,310, about 30 will make it to the National Basketball Association. An additional 130 will play pro ball in Europe.
In soccer, the odds are even longer, because so many colleges recruit foreign players. "It's not a worthy objective at the fourth- or fifth- or sixth-grade level," Doyle says, "which is what some of these coaches are telling them. You know, 'If you don't play for me you're not going to get to college.' " And tennis? Doyle found that there are approximately 3 million males between 10 and 18 worldwide aspiring to be top tennis players. How many make money on the pro circuit? 175. "The professional aspiration," he says, "it's just crazy."Pell Grants alone will send more than 10 times that number of kids to college for free.
|
|
|
Post by BearClause on Jan 18, 2007 15:57:53 GMT -5
Re: athletic vs. academic scholarships You have to be a much better student than volleyball player to get a full scholarship. It probably says a lot about our culture, but I'm pretty sure it's true. Also a myth. This excerpt is from the article I quote earlier in this thread: I don't think he was talking about total numbers, but of quality of student or athlete. Give me a 6'4" girl who's played the game for only two years but has "potential" and I'm sure there's a program willing to offer a full-ride scholarship. Find a slacker who just started to concentrate on education and see if a non need-based full scholarship materializes.
|
|
|
Post by Wolfgang on Jan 18, 2007 16:12:03 GMT -5
I don't know about the rest of you but I always thought it was fairly obvious and common knowledge that girls in volleyball clubs are MOSTLY from well-to-do to rich families. And yes, a significant proportion of them are WHITE.
So, I don't know what the dispute is, here in this thread. You're fighting about a known issue.
Also, my daughters play club ball and they are Italian Jews. How do they fit in the picture?
|
|