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Post by vierra on May 12, 2004 3:15:27 GMT -5
You think this was bad. In the U.S. Civil War in Mississippi when fellow countrymen were fighting other fellow countrymen (cuz, you know, it was a Civil War), men killed other men and scalped them, tortured them, cut off their ears, noses, etc. The scalpers wore the scalped heads on their own heads. Many also wore the ears and noses of the dead people on their own ears and noses and paraded around.
Abe Lincoln saw this and was appalled.
My wife told me about this. It was in the news recently when they interviewed a historian.
There was also a West Point trainer who also said that since the early 1990s, West Point systematically trained their students HOW and in WHAT SITUATIONS subordinates can disobey their superiors. Other military academies also teach the same principles, which are all founded in morality. So, those idiots who are up for court-martial can't use that "I was followin' orders" defense.
I hope they don't court-martial those attack dogs.
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Post by itsallaboutme on May 12, 2004 8:03:17 GMT -5
The decision to go to war was George W. Bush's. He is quick to take credit when something positive happens, which isn't to often, & quick to blame others when something bad happens. We all remember his big political stunt on the air craft carrier where he proclaimed "Mission Accomplished". The message was that this was the end of "major combat", now he says his statement was in regards to Saddam being removed. Whatever, I know if I or you make a decision we are responsible for that decision. I good leader takes responsibility for the decisions he makes & this leader refuses to take responsibility whenever something bad happens as a result of HIS DECISIONS. We need mature leadership & I'm tired of this spoiled brat who's been given everything to him by his Daddy & has never earned anything on his own.
I've heard many a person say "I wish this President Wisdom in these tough times" blah blah blah. GW & wisdom?? Those two words don't belong in the same sentence. I'm tire of GW's supporters making excuses for him. He went to war on false pretenses, he lied not only to congress but the entire world.
This is a President who did not want a 9/11 commision, then did not want a report to come out before the election, did not want to testify but finally had no choice then the week before he is to testify(with cheney to hold his hand) acts like the commission was his idea & that "America has a right to know what happened". Give me a F(&(ing Break!!!!!! Give me a President who lied about having an affair over a President who lies about everything!!!!
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2004 8:18:56 GMT -5
Where's the outrage over this? www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4953015/Seriously some of you people (you know who you are) are sick. Bash the American administration for what went on at Abu Ghraib prison but no mention whatsoever of this heinous crime commited against an innocent American by these scumbags!!! How many of the Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib had their friggin heads cut off. Where the hell are your priorites people? Your objectivity (or lack thereof) makes me sick!! What the hell do you think this is? And what right do you have to call me sick? The WHOLE mess makes me sick. Do you think I approve of people flying planes into buildings? Of journalists and contractors being beheaded? Of people being burned and paraded around afterward? Again, I remind you, we are the GOOD guys. Why are we invading other countries? Why are we treating prisoners--with this Administration's support--like this? Why the bleep are we in this mess? In all sincerity, BiK, you are way off base with the comment above.
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Post by Saruman on May 12, 2004 10:42:05 GMT -5
BIK.....
My and most civil educated and even officers of the US Army have come out to flatly condemn hte actions of those few soldiers and their actions.
The red flags were up long before two weeks ago my friend and I have a terrible feeling that there is more to come.
We are the "civilized" world......isn't that what you pontificate?
So we should carry ourselves that way and fight for humanity. These are my priorities!
I have watched and read your steady decline BIK. You started out strong and seemingly well versed and prepared to defend this administration.....but you have descended into a state of frustation and negativity.....which makes me wonder two things.
Is the core of your beliefs (blind allegience to some) shaken?
Are you forgetting that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely?
My point is that any administration or extension of it however benevolent or righteous they might be will quickly loose sight of their goals and objectives if unchecked. I think this is the concern of many of us in the middle and the left....and now seemingly some of those on the right.
My point is that I hope that you don't forget that the freedom of differing opinions and stances are one of the greatest foundations of this country......and ultimately what makes us so strong.
It is very hard for me to believe that anyone could be supportive of the behavior and actions of these soldiers in these prisons.....but I will await the full undisclosed report before I cast judgement completely on these individuals as human beings.
A child is attacked, a woman is raped, a police officer is killed. This criminal is caught, tried and convicted and sentenced. There is not tortured or cruel and unusual punishment allowed......so I wonder how people can say that it is okay in Irag to do this because these "criminals" shot at us or tried to kill us.
Do our values and civil rights suddenly change because we are not on American soil?
On Some points we agree to disagree....and that is healthly....but recently I struggle to find and ANY value to your points of late.
Watch 60 minutes II tonight!
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Post by Gorf on May 12, 2004 11:25:58 GMT -5
Hardly absurd, No mention was even made of it by you people. It does no good in the campaign to drive out the President by talking about the execution of an American civilian. When the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal broke, you posted with alacrity. Shows where your priorites are. Whenever the treatment of an Iraqi insurgent takes precedent over that of an American civilian by the friggin American media, SOMETHING IS WRONG!! BiK, As far as I can tell you and your ilk are the ONLY people in here attempting to make a political issue out of these topics by continually accusing others of doing that. Apparently that's and your feigned repeated "outrages" about things are the only means of debate you've been able to think of lately.
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Post by Gorf on May 12, 2004 11:33:18 GMT -5
Actually it makes a lot of sense. I tire of hearing about the Iraqi prisoner scandal, Americans are still dying in Iraq. It isn't going away soon I'm afraid. They way it came out well after the fact and only did so because one of the soldiers couldn't take seeing the abuse happening any longer makes it smell of a cover up by the military at the very least. If the investigations show that Rumsfield knew about it months before his claim of finding out about it this past January then there ought to be some repercussions he needs to face. Apology accepted. [/quote]
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Post by Gorf on May 12, 2004 11:48:14 GMT -5
Well, as a former correctional officer (I think I mentioned that before), I will tell you that it is true. I have seen things happen inside institutions that were pretty heinous. A lot of people don't realize how serious a problem prison overcrowding is in the U.S., particularly in states like California and Texas and New York. Too many inmates, not enough staff, and never enough resources makes an environment ripe for abuse. As far as I can gather, the abuses in the Iraqi prison were physical abuse, and sexual humiliation of hooded/naked prisoners. You have mentioned before that you were a correction facility officer. I understand there are major abuses happening in US prisons. I don't condone those abuses anymore than I condone what happened (and potentially continues to happen) in Iraq. That said, the reports I've read has mentioned some prisoners having died as a results of the interrogations. Perhaps those were only the ones in Afghanistan since some of the reports I've read were discussing the US military / CIA / contractor treatment of prisoners in general in over in that area. If some of the Iraqi prisoners did indeed die as a result of the abuses then I will stick with my earlier comment that I don't believe the treatment of US prisoners would be "far worse". It is deplorable that US prisoners are also abused, however, they at least have had due process and were convicted of their crimes. The Iraqi prisoners have not been giving that opportunity and we don't know how many of those abused were totally innocent of doing anything other than perhaps being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Again, some of the reports I've seen have indicated that as high as 70% of the Iraqi's in the US run prisons are being held without valid reason.
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Post by islandgirl on May 12, 2004 12:43:07 GMT -5
BiK, I just have to respond. This is too offensive.
You seem to be saying that criticizing the president/war or expressing disgust with the treatment of the Iraqi prisoners is somehow unAmerican. There are some real illogical leaps there. This shows your mindset and how you are again missing the point. I can't speak for sure for the others you included in your rant, but I have the feeling that they, like myself, are very proud Americans -- very proud of the right to express disgust with the government when it is warranted. That does not mean I don't feel disgust for any other injustice.
Do not dare to claim that I am somehow "sick" and imply that I don't care about this innocent American who was killed and that my heart doesn't go out to his family. His death was horrific and I hope they catch those murderers and bring them to justice (and, no, I don't hope they are tortured in prison or beheaded on video.)
The strong sentiments I have regarding Nick Berg and the treatment of Iraqi prisoners are not mutually exclusive.
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Post by vierra on May 12, 2004 12:47:38 GMT -5
BIK is clearly a misunderstood person. Deep down, I'm sure he has a heart. It's just that he is taking sides (for Bush) when he should be examining the issues on their own.
I fault BIK for one thing and one thing alone: he chose to be friends with WyomingBoy. Ahh, yes, that decision alone has clouded his judgment. I even told him via IM that he should not take sides between me and MontanaBoy based on where his friendships lie; I encouraged him to take sides (if at all) based on the issue at hand.
Other than that, he's a cool fella. He sent me vb tapes and what could be more important than that?
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2004 13:11:23 GMT -5
BiK has plenty of good points. He's the object of my affections, after all.
Now, if only MSDA would fess up regarding IB...
Somebody needs to start a cheerier thread.
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Post by Barefoot In Kailua on May 12, 2004 13:25:16 GMT -5
What the hell do you think this is? And what right do you have to call me sick? Bill of Rights Amendment I The same Amendment that gives you the freedom to bash The President without worry.
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Post by Barefoot In Kailua on May 12, 2004 14:00:13 GMT -5
BIK..... The red flags were up long before two weeks ago my friend and I have a terrible feeling that there is more to come. No doubt you are correct and I expect CBS, CNN, and others to report with fervor. We are the "civilized" world......isn't that what you pontificate? No, that's what others pontificate but it would be foolish to say that America is not a Civilized nation. However, I do favor a more barbaric response to these thugs. I have watched and read your steady decline BIK. You started out strong and seemingly well versed and prepared to defend this administration.....but you have descended into a state of frustation and negativity.....which makes me wonder two things. Is the core of your beliefs (blind allegience to some) shaken? Not at all. Fwiw, I don't think the Bush Administartion is faultless. I do believe they've done a terrible job of keeping the peace after Saddam Hussein and the Baathists were driven from power. My point is that I hope that you don't forget that the freedom of differing opinions and stances are one of the greatest foundations of this country......and ultimately what makes us so strong. Despite my comments, I'll never forget that. It is very hard for me to believe that anyone could be supportive of the behavior and actions of these soldiers in these prisons.....but I will await the full undisclosed report before I cast judgement completely on these individuals as human beings. I'm not supprted of their behavior, but I understand the pressure that these men and women are put under. I'm not condoning their actions but I don't find it as hard to believe as others do. What bothers me is that many Americans are far more disturbed with the way Iraqi POW's are treated than the way their own bretheren are treated. On Some points we agree to disagree....and that is healthly....but recently I struggle to find and ANY value to your points of late. Watch 60 minutes II tonight! Well that's your prerogative. I don't watch CBS news or anything connected to it. I'm sick of their biased and one way reporting.
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Post by Barefoot In Kailua on May 12, 2004 14:12:11 GMT -5
>-(Gorf)-<[} link=board=news&thread=1083834849&start=64#4 date=1084379158] Apparently that and your feigned repeated "outrages" Feigned? Why you, you!
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Post by Barefoot In Kailua on May 12, 2004 14:13:22 GMT -5
BiK, I just have to respond. No you don't. Go back to the sidelines and take your pom poms with you!
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Post by Barefoot In Kailua on May 12, 2004 14:17:44 GMT -5
BIK is clearly a misunderstood person. Deep down, I'm sure he has a heart. It's just that he is taking sides (for Bush) when he should be examining the issues on their own. I fault BIK for one thing and one thing alone: he chose to be friends with WyomingBoy. Ahh, yes, that decision alone has clouded his judgment. I even told him via IM that he should not take sides between me and MontanaBoy based on where his friendships lie; I encouraged him to take sides (if at all) based on the issue at hand. Of course I'll side with Bush. Bush isn't the best thing in the world but certainly next to it.
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