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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2004 23:34:36 GMT -5
That's one way to look at it. Or you can take the view that this is what happens when poorly-trained, ill-qualified people are put in charge of a prison ANY time, let alone in a war environment.
Are they to blame? Sure. But you can't seriously give a free pass to the architects of this dirty little war.
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Post by midwestfan on May 11, 2004 23:43:23 GMT -5
Ok, let's not debate the merits of the war at this point.
I don't think training had anything to do with it. Morals and ethics are learned traits early in life. Most people (as evidenced by the somewhat small number involved) would inherently know that this was wrong. These people were "thugs!" They were probably thugs before they joined the armed services. But let's talk about training and qualifications. I don't think you can seriously blame the Bush administration when they had been in office for roughly two years. The armed forces work the same, regardless of who is President. They are (thank God) an apolitical orginization. Do you seriously think new Generals, Sergeants, Leutenantsetc. are put in charge everytime we change Presidents?
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2004 0:32:26 GMT -5
First of all, these people were encouraged to do what they were doing by military intelligence.
Second, you certainly do need training before you are put in a situation like that.
Last, GW is in charge. Like it or not, he has to make sure that things are under control. And you can't not debate the merits of the war. He had no plans for any of this. And now we have chaos. GW inherited lots of things. I know that. But the mark of a good leader is how he/she deals with the problems and uses the resources. He has failed miserably.
I'm not making excuses for the behavior of these soldiers. But I'm not about to make excuses for the people who put them in that situation either.
But I'm way too tired to discuss this tonight. Today's events have just been too awful for words, anyhow...
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Post by BarcelonaBob on May 12, 2004 1:50:11 GMT -5
I'm just interested to know where everyone is coming from on this issue:
-How many people here have served in the military?
-How many people here have worked in a correctional (aka prison) environment?
-How many people here have served as president? (okay, okay...I don't think Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush the Elder, or Slick Willy the Poontang Master, posts here, but just had to ask)
As an aside, there's human rights violations going on in correctional institutions in our own country that are far worse than what you saw in that Iraqi prison. Just never see it on the news. Doesn't mean it didn't happen. Should we blame Bush for those incidents as well? I mean...he is the President, he's in charge, right? What about all the Republican and Democratic governors of the states which have such violations occurring in their prisons, should we blame them too?
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Post by Gorf on May 12, 2004 1:54:27 GMT -5
Can someone please explain to me why everyone is being blamed for this except the people who actually did it? Who do you find that isn't being blamed? The MP's are the ones being courtmartialed and likely worse. Rightfully so since the evidence has shown that they did indeed abuse the prisoners. Rummy, the CIA operatives, and the civilian contractors that were in charge of the interrogations appear to be getting off with no charges being brought against them. That is absolutely not reasonable. The interrogators have been reported as being the ones that set the level and type of treatment the expected various prisoners to be given. Including handing the prisoners over to the MP's bound and naked in some instances. The MP's were not supposed to be getting their directions form non-military personnel, yet were being directed by those CIA operatives and the civilian contractors. Rumsfeld HAD to have known that to be the case and he did nothing about it. Again, putting his troops in a situation that they didn't deserve to be in, especially without any training in performing the tasks of keeping prisoners in Iraq. So you're of the belief that the 7 individuals involved in the one prison are the only ones to be blamed? What explains the similar circumstances with prisoners being abused and even murdered in Afghanistan? Similar abuse reports have bene made regarding other prisons in Iraq. Those seven MP's sure appear to have gotten around to do their dirty work. What is in common with all of those instances? The CIA operatives and civilian contractors that were reportedly moving from prison to prison in Iraq. Seemingly using the exact same interrogation and abuse techniques that Rumsfeld explicitly had written and signed off on for the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay. How much time have you spent in a war situation? I personally have spent none, however, from discussions I've had with both my brother (Vietnam) and my father (Word War II) there are numerous instances of people raised to meet even your sense of perfect moral perfection going off the deep end because of things happening during the war. That doesn't excuse the MP's for what they did, however, you have absolutely no means of judging how they were raised and are extremely out of line in casting aspersions on their parents without knowing any information at all about how they raised their children. Its amazing to me that the people who try to come off as being the most righteous are those that cast the first and strongest judgements on others. Supposed Christians using convenient portions of the Bible to put down someone else while conveniently forgetting the numerous other parts of the Bible that they themselves are out of aligment with turning the "ten commandments" into the "X commandments that conveniently suit how they're feeling at the moment". Or the so called "conservatives" that have no problem in using whatever they want in their own political arguments during an election year yet continue to pull out the "the liberals are just using X as a political issue" argument for any issue they can't think of any other defense against.
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Post by Barefoot In Kailua on May 12, 2004 2:03:42 GMT -5
Where's the outrage over this? www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4953015/Seriously some of you people (you know who you are) are sick. Bash the American administration for what went on at Abu Ghraib prison but no mention whatsoever of this heinous crime commited against an innocent American by these scumbags!!! How many of the Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib had their friggin heads cut off. Where the hell are your priorites people? Your objectivity (or lack thereof) makes me sick!!
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Post by BarcelonaBob on May 12, 2004 2:10:25 GMT -5
Where's the outrage over this? www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4953015/Seriously some of you people ( you know who you are) are sick. Bash the American administration for what went on at Abu Ghraib prison but no mention whatsoever of this heinous crime commited against an innocent American by these scumbags!!! Where's CBS?! I saw that story, too, but on a different site. It sickens me to my stomach. What makes it even more sad is that the family of the victim knew that he had been killed earlier in the weekend, but were hoping that the story of his beheading would not break in the American media. But now it has, and their pain and suffering has to be even worse now. And I do agree with the Gorfster, not only are the MPs responsible, but so are the CIA folks and the contractors as well. But funny how the CIA always gets off clean in situations like this, and that is regardless of which party is in charge in the White House.
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Post by Gorf on May 12, 2004 2:14:18 GMT -5
I'm just interested to know where everyone is coming from on this issue: -How many people here have served in the military? -How many people here have worked in a correctional (aka prison) environment? -How many people here have served as president? (okay, okay...I don't think Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush the Elder, or Slick Willy the Poontang Master, posts here, but just had to ask) As an aside, there's human rights violations going on in correctional institutions in our own country that are far worse than what you saw in that Iraqi prison. Just never see it on the news. Doesn't mean it didn't happen. Should we blame Bush for those incidents as well? I mean...he is the President, he's in charge, right? What about all the Republican and Democratic governors of the states which have such violations occurring in their prisons, should we blame them too? I don't disagree with much of what you say. I don't blame GW at all for the prisoner abuses. I due potentially blame Rumsfeld. If he knew about the abuses happening in the Iraqi prisons as early as the Red Cross says they started reporting them to our military leaders. Which was well before the January reports and even before the September time frame that the abuses being discussed recently supposedly took place and he stood by allowing it to continue then he certainly needs to be held responsible. The January 16th report he cited mentions explicitly that the treatment of Iraqi prisoners though rough was absolutely within the bound of the Geneva Convention is obviously now being shown not to be the case and the pictures leaked to the media now were reportedly available to military leaders at that time so they had to have known that the prisoners were being handled by methods outside the boundaries of the Geneva Convention. I will take exception to your claim that the abuses of prisoners in the US have been treated "far worse" than the Iraqi prisoners. There is also a very major difference between the people in prisons in the US and those in the Iraqi prisons. Equally as bad perhaps, but not FAR worse. The US prisoners have all been given due process while none of the Iraqi prisoners have been given due process. Its been reported at as many as 70% of those being held in the Iraqi prisons were placed in the prisons without proper cause.
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Post by Barefoot In Kailua on May 12, 2004 2:14:37 GMT -5
I saw that story, too, but on a different site. It sickens me to my stomach. What makes it even more sad is that the family of the victim knew that he had been killed earlier in the weekend, but were hoping that the story of his beheading would not break in the American media. But now it has, and their pain and suffering has to be even worse now. And you know now the blame for his killing will fall on the American administration and those responsible for the prisoner abuses at Abu Ghraib instead of the friggin cowards who actually commited the crime.
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Post by Gorf on May 12, 2004 2:18:53 GMT -5
Where's the outrage over this? www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4953015/Seriously some of you people (you know who you are) are sick. Bash the American administration for what went on at Abu Ghraib prison but no mention whatsoever of this heinous crime commited against an innocent American by these scumbags!!! How many of the Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib had their friggin heads cut off. Where the hell are your priorites people? Your objectivity (or lack thereof) makes me sick!! That murder was indeed a heinous and indefensible act. However, your bring it up against anyone discussing the Iraqi prisoner abuses at this point is a bit absurd since we've been discussing the abuses for days (and they started taking place months ago) and this incident wasn't reported until yesterday as far as I know.
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Post by BarcelonaBob on May 12, 2004 2:23:46 GMT -5
>-(Gorf)-<[} link=board=news&thread=1083834849&start=52#3 date=1084346058] . I will take exception to your claim that the abuses of prisoners in the US have been treated "far worse" than the Iraqi prisoners. Well, as a former correctional officer (I think I mentioned that before), I will tell you that it is true. I have seen things happen inside institutions that were pretty heinous. A lot of people don't realize how serious a problem prison overcrowding is in the U.S., particularly in states like California and Texas and New York. Too many inmates, not enough staff, and never enough resources makes an environment ripe for abuse. As far as I can gather, the abuses in the Iraqi prison were physical abuse, and sexual humiliation of hooded/naked prisoners.
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Post by BarcelonaBob on May 12, 2004 2:29:15 GMT -5
You know, I just thought about this a little. Part of the problem in Iraq is that you have a very small percentage of the population as extremists/militants causing 99.99% of the problems.
We went in, took over, but didn't declare Marshall Law. Part of the reason for not declaring it is to allow the majority of the Iraqi public (the peace-loving, non-militant sector) to go about their daily business and get the country back up and running.
However, by not limiting movement of the general population and imposing curfews, etc., it makes Coalition Forces (keeping in mind, it's not just Americans that are being taken hostage and killed) more vunerable to attack, since it's impossible to defend against an enemy that blends in so easily and completely with the general population.
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Post by Barefoot In Kailua on May 12, 2004 2:29:24 GMT -5
>-(Gorf)-<[} link=board=news&thread=1083834849&start=54#3 date=1084346333] That murder was indeed a heinous and indefensible act. However, your bring it up against anyone discussing the Iraqi prisoner abuses at this point is a bit absurd since we've been discussing the abuses for days (and they started taking place months ago) and this incident wasn't reported until yesterday as far as I know. Hardly absurd, No mention was even made of it by you people. It does no good in the campaign to drive out the President by talking about the execution of an American civilian. When the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal broke, you posted with alacrity. Shows where your priorites are. Whenever the treatment of an Iraqi insurgent takes precedent over that of an American civilian by the friggin American media, SOMETHING IS WRONG!!
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Post by BarcelonaBob on May 12, 2004 2:34:19 GMT -5
Hardly absurd, No mention was even made of it by you people. It does no good in campaign to drive out the President to talk about the execution of an American civilian. When the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal broke, you posted with alacrity. Shows where your priorites are. Whenever the treatment of an Iraqi insurgent takes precedent over that of an American civilian by the friggin American media, SOMETHING IS WRONG!! Well, actually, it is better for the U.S. media to not play up incidents like the beheading of the U.S. contractor. If the insurgents find out that accomplishing such acts creates a big stir here in the U.S., it gives them more incentive to go out and do it again. I know that doesn't make much sense, but that is why it's not good to publicize those kinda incidents. Only reason the U.S. media picked it up is because the story had already broke on Arab media.
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Post by Barefoot In Kailua on May 12, 2004 2:48:11 GMT -5
Well, actually, it is better for the U.S. media to not play up incidents like the beheading of the U.S. contractor. If the insurgents find out that accomplishing such acts creates a big stir here in the U.S., it gives them more incentive to go out and do it again. I know that doesn't make much sense, but that is why it's not good to publicize those kinda incidents. Only reason the U.S. media picked it up is because the story had already broke on Arab media. Actually it makes a lot of sense. I tire of hearing about the Iraqi prisoner scandal, Americans are still dying in Iraq. I have to apologize to Gorf. What I said about his priorities was a low blow and not cool at all, I apologize Gorf.
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