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Post by tomclen on Nov 6, 2011 22:12:49 GMT -5
What would be a disgrace is allowing a subordinate to have a full-retirement and emeritus status after learning that he had sexually abused a 10-year old boy.
And to not report him to authorities or, with your clout, demand that your superiors report him to authorities. And instead be worried more about your image. That would be a disgrace.
But now it looks like the former graduate assistant, now an employee with the football program, will be allowed to take the fall and absorb all the blame. That would be a disgrace.
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Post by NebraskaVBfan93 on Nov 6, 2011 22:19:28 GMT -5
I don't care how many games JoePa has won or how long he has coached. He is a disgrace. because his inaction arguably resulted in maybe 5 more youths being sexually assaulted, their lives forever damaged? what about someone who says that the football program should be discontinued, which would result in thousands of people's lives being damaged? would that person also be a disgrace? How can you dare to compare the effects of someone merely suggesting a football program be eliminated with the inaction of someone that may have resulted someone, or multiple someones being SEXUALLY ASSAULTED? Talk about disgraceful!
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Post by volleylearner on Nov 6, 2011 23:22:25 GMT -5
I don't think punishing the football program in general would send the right message. The horrifying sequence of events is not about an institution, it is about one person who did something incredibly bad and a set of university leaders who did something strikingly bad by not taking the necessary action (the striking aspect comes from their leadership positions).
To me, the right message would be sent by having the Board of Trustees force Spanier to resign. People are rarely fired because of lawsuit threats, but it isn't that hard to force them to resign. It can be expensive, but Penn State will lose a lot more in future dollars if Spanier stays in power.
Schultz and Curly will get their due process--Sandusky too, of course--and the university shouldn't mess with any of that.
That Paterno avoided criminal charges and will likely testify for the prosecution does not mean he did the right thing. It means there is no case to prosecute him and they can use him to get Schultz and Curly.
I think they should just let Paterno's contract expire this year and be done with him. No big honors, no welcoming him back at homecoming, no TV interviews or radio shows. Just send him on his way. That's probably the best they can do.
The university should also pay a generous settlement to the victims. Maybe they are working on that already. Not that money makes up for the crimes, but I'm not sure what else they can do.
I'm not a resident of Pennsylvania, but if I were I'd write a letter to the Penn State Board of Trustees asking them to get rid of Spanier. I don't know whether he is corrupt or incompetent regarding this situation, but either way he shouldn't be President of Penn State.
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Post by truffleshuffle on Nov 6, 2011 23:51:50 GMT -5
because his inaction arguably resulted in maybe 5 more youths being sexually assaulted, their lives forever damaged? what about someone who says that the football program should be discontinued, which would result in thousands of people's lives being damaged? would that person also be a disgrace? How can you dare to compare the effects of someone merely suggesting a football program be eliminated with the inaction of someone that may have resulted someone, or multiple someones being SEXUALLY ASSAULTED? Talk about disgraceful! yes clearly i am saying that they are the same thing. however, isn't it pretty damn silly to say that thousands of people should be harmed because a small handful of people (a former coach, two or three administrators, arguably a couple of coaches) acted poorly?
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Post by truffleshuffle on Nov 6, 2011 23:57:13 GMT -5
I think they should just let Paterno's contract expire this year and be done with him. No big honors, no welcoming him back at homecoming, no TV interviews or radio shows. Just send him on his way. That's probably the best they can do. hey thanks for basically turning the school into what it is today, now get out. i find it quite ironic that a guy who has always been praised for doing things by the book is now being thrown under the bus because he followed the procedures set out by state of pennsylvania law.
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Post by tomclen on Nov 7, 2011 0:18:01 GMT -5
I think they should just let Paterno's contract expire this year and be done with him. No big honors, no welcoming him back at homecoming, no TV interviews or radio shows. Just send him on his way. That's probably the best they can do. hey thanks for basically turning the school into what it is today, now get out. i find it quite ironic that a guy who has always been praised for doing things by the book is now being thrown under the bus because he followed the procedures set out by state of pennsylvania law. That's the problem with the typical US obsession with sports. Someone actually believes that a football coach, no matter how great, has turned a major university into what it is. Penn State University is not a great school because of a football coach or team. And when you reach a point where enough people are so focused on football that a coach is allowed to become untouchable, even after 10-year old boys are being sexually molested in the football team locker room by an assistant coach...you have a major case of misplaced priorities. Paterno was told about the allegations in 2002. Seven years later, in 2009, the accused coach is still bringing young boys to PSU football facilities. And now Paterno is suggesting that he was told the coach and the young boy were just 'horsing around' in the shower!!! What sane assistant football coach at a major university would be 'horsing around' with a 10-year old boy in the shower? What sane head coach at any school would not be outraged? What competent university president could hear such talk and not demand that heads roll? And what kind of fan is willing to find excuses for such behavior no matter what, rather than admit that they've placed their enthusiasm and support on a coach who puts his image and power ahead of the well being of young boys...even if it means those young boys are having their lives ruined by a sexual predator?
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Post by volleylearner on Nov 7, 2011 0:32:46 GMT -5
hey thanks for basically turning the school into what it is today [...] Sounds a bit insulting to the rest of the university staff and students to define what Penn State "is" by Joe Paterno, however great you think his accomplishments have been. Given his position in the university and the severity of the accusation, I believe he should have done more than simply follow procedure. I don't think I recommended throwing him under the bus as much as dampening the enthusiasm for him. Keeping him next year just doesn't seem like a good idea (and it wasn't even clear that was a good idea without this scandal).
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Post by truffleshuffle on Nov 7, 2011 0:37:39 GMT -5
That's the problem with the typical US obsession with sports. Someone actually believes that a football coach, no matter how great, has turned a major university into what it is. compare PSU to what it was when paterno took over. and compare the growth and profile of the school to the growth of similar public universities since the mid 1960s. you've got your head in the sand if you don't think football has done an enormous amount for the university as a whole. wrong. the indictment involves only one victim since 2002, and those incidents occurred at sandusky's home. for God's sakes, get some facts right please. it says that nowhere in paterno's statement. wrong, wrong, wrong. he followed the guidelines as issued by the state of pennsylvania. it's not his job to keep following up and asking how the investigation is going. you have to assume that the people above you will do the right thing; you don't keep checking their work to make sure they did it right. that's how organizations function. and do you really think it's a great idea to have a third party nosing around in a private investigation? what happens if what mcqueary saw was just innocent horseplay and word gets out that paterno is asking around about sandusky molesting a kid? now everyone thinks that a married parent is a sexual predator. you tell your boss what you know and you leave it at that... it's how most businesses work. and nobody is making excuses "no matter what;" if paterno were responsible for telling law enforcement then i'd be sitting here telling you that he should be suspended immediately. but he was not responsible. that job fell on the school president and athletic director, neither of whom appear to have done the correct thing legally.
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Post by volleylearner on Nov 7, 2011 0:52:38 GMT -5
[...] you tell your boss what you know and you leave it at that... it's how most businesses work. I think you are oversimplifying here, at least in my experience. The prosecutor agrees that Paterno was not legally responsible, and I do too. But just because someone does not commit a crime does not mean they took the correct action. Keep in mind Paterno knew the grad assistant thought it was really serious (he has been quoted as saying that), and it seems likely he knew the action taken (Sandusky was not allowed to bring children to the facilities--which should have raised some flags in his mind). He also had worked with Sandusky for a long time. I don't agree with you that in situations like this, an employee just reports to their supervisor and then goes back to the mill. Especially when the employee is such a renowned leader in their department. They have a responsibility to know what action was taken and a sense of whether that outcome seemed reasonable. I think that is part of what leaders do in strong organizations.
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Post by NebraskaVBfan93 on Nov 7, 2011 1:41:40 GMT -5
How can you dare to compare the effects of someone merely suggesting a football program be eliminated with the inaction of someone that may have resulted someone, or multiple someones being SEXUALLY ASSAULTED? Talk about disgraceful! yes clearly i am saying that they are the same thing. however, isn't it pretty damn silly to say that thousands of people should be harmed because a small handful of people (a former coach, two or three administrators, arguably a couple of coaches) acted poorly? You "clearly" made an insensitive comparison between two VASTLY different sets of events. Having said that, I agree with your opinion that the existence of the football program should not be at stake. Where I vehemently disagree is the culpability of Joe Pa. If it is determined to be true that he had knowledge of the alleged assaults occurring, IMO he had a moral obligation to report this knowledge to the legal authorities. And I believe all who had similar knowledge should be held to the same standard. This is NOT an issue where your responsibility to do the right thing disappears just because you told your boss. It's not a "What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas" kinda deal. I find it reprehensible to think anyone could simply sweep this under the rug. But again, there are many things yet to be determined and I trust justice will be served for all included. Time will tell.
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Post by truffleshuffle on Nov 7, 2011 4:19:34 GMT -5
well we will just have to agree to disagree then. i think it's up to paterno to follow the letter of the law. to me it's not his place to go to the police, because (a) he's undercutting his superiors (spanier, curley) by doing so and (b) if any non-supervisor is going to the police, it should be mcqueary, who witnessed the alleged assault first-hand. paterno is literally the last person who should be going to the police, since all he has is a vague account from a grad assistant. (chances are mcqueary didn't go into detail - who goes up to a coaching icon their grandfather's age and says "yeah i saw sandusky having anal sex with a boy?" he probably said what paterno relayed, that he saw what he believed to be inappropriate behavior between sandusky and a minor.)
if paterno goes to the police, all they're going to do is talk to mcqueary and then talk to spanier/schultz/curley to determine why they weren't notified. if you're going to throw everyone under the bus, make sure that janitor (who witnessed a similar attack and didn't report it), mcqueary, the football coach at a local high school (who witnessed sandusky lying on a wrestling mat face to face with a minor, and also thought sandusky exhibited "clingy" behavior toward a young man), the detectives who investigated previous claims but didn't end up with a prosecution, the people from the department of welfare, etc. if you're going after someone who did the right thing legally, then just throw everyone out on their ass.
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Post by future on Nov 7, 2011 6:37:00 GMT -5
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Post by Not Me on Nov 7, 2011 7:22:34 GMT -5
so he took one of these kids out of state to a Bowl game?
No one questioned that?
That seems odd to met in the first place.
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Post by tomclen on Nov 7, 2011 7:36:31 GMT -5
Ironic that NOW Joe Paterno's supporters are suggesting he should not have done anything that could be seen as 'undercutting his superiors.'
The NCAA ordered a ban on the SMU football program because $60,000 was paid to 21 players in violation of NCAA rules.
The NCAA ordered a ban on soccer at Morehouse College because the school's PART-TIME soccer coach signed two players who had limited professional playing time.
Those violations are pretty tame in my book compared to a long-time assistant coach, said to be Paterno's right-hand-man, having sex with young boys while using PSU football facillities. Especially when a rattled young witness and HIS FATHER went to Paterno's house on a weekend morning to tell Paterno about what he had seen.
I'm sorry, these latest statements from Paterno that he's SHOCKED just don't pass the smell test.
He should have been shocked a long time ago. But I'd suggest he was too busy carefully polishing his image and legacy and not really concerned about doing the right thing. He certainly was not concerned about the young victims. There's not suggestion of evidence that Paterno or his superiors ever even asked for the names or any other information about the real victims in this case.
And now Paterno is playing the "I'm Shocked" card after all the damage is done.
It's a shame. I think Paterno was a great coach. A truly great coach.
WAS.
But now, a sad, pathetic, old man who refused to let go of his power long past his time and who wants to talk about the letter of the rules rather than admitting he was at the center of the ultimate F***-up in all of college sports.
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Post by truffleshuffle on Nov 7, 2011 7:49:28 GMT -5
Ironic that NOW Joe Paterno's supporters are suggesting he should not have done anything that could be seen as 'undercutting his superiors.' considering how badly your arguments in this thread have been riddled with factual errors, i'm surprised you've kept participating. in a legal matter, he absolutely should not be sticking his nose where it doesn't belong. everyone bitches when coaches get involved on behalf of their players who screw up off the field. this was a former coach witnessed by a current grad assistant. the only way this involved the head football coach was that the incident happened on university grounds in the football building. you seem so hung up on paterno's role in this, yet you said earlier in this thread: "But now it looks like the former graduate assistant, now an employee with the football program, will be allowed to take the fall and absorb all the blame." first of all, i have no idea where you're getting that; nothing i have seen is blaming mcqueary for the action he took. but more importantly, if you're going to blame paterno for not going to the cops, why are you sympathetic toward mcqueary? he was the one who SAW the incident.
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