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Post by klazk on Sept 2, 2014 14:54:33 GMT -5
And pinning qualification hopes on the Continental Cup is a dangerous proposition, even if a team like Fendrick/Sweat or Doherty/Lucena played - one bad match and you're out I don't think this is correct. Hoping camkerr will jump in here since he probably follows the continental cup action closer than I do considering that is how Canada qualified in 2012. I believe that in the continental cup format, it is actually a best of 3 or 5 format (depending on which "phase") where countries go head to head with two teams per country competing. A "golden match" is played if it is tied after 2 (or 4) matches. Couldn't find the NORCECA format online (no surprise) but the CEV format does appear to be set up that way. cevadmin.cev.lu/Administration/Includes/Downloadfile.aspx?id=98964
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Post by geddyleeridesagain on Sept 2, 2014 15:36:09 GMT -5
And pinning qualification hopes on the Continental Cup is a dangerous proposition, even if a team like Fendrick/Sweat or Doherty/Lucena played - one bad match and you're out I don't think this is correct. Hoping camkerr will jump in here since he probably follows the continental cup action closer than I do considering that is how Canada qualified in 2012. I believe that in the continental cup format, it is actually a best of 3 or 5 format (depending on which "phase") where countries go head to head with two teams per country competing. A "golden match" is played if it is tied after 2 (or 4) matches. Couldn't find the NORCECA format online (no surprise) but the CEV format does appear to be set up that way. cevadmin.cev.lu/Administration/Includes/Downloadfile.aspx?id=98964Yeah, now that I think about it, there was some sort of multiple-match format along with a kinda-sorta contenders bracket component. But what I remember more than anything else was both USA teams getting bounced early. And while my memory is a little fuzzy, I seem to recall some hijinks in respect to USAV receiving little advance notice about the event from NORCECA...or maybe that was a junior world championship qualifier. At any rate, any time NORCECA is involved, I get a little nervous.
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Post by klazk on Sept 2, 2014 15:51:50 GMT -5
Hmmmm, part of that seems to be that US had to face Canada early. On the men's side, the US teams were Steve Vander Werp/Matt McKinney and Strickland/Wachtfogel. This was April 2011, so not sure how well trained Strickland/Wachtfogel would have been after the AVP had collapsed the prior August.
The women's teams were Pavlik/Kropp and Rutledge/Ivy. They lost to Cuba with Pavlik/Kropp going 1-1 and Rutledge/Ivy going 0-2.
It shouldn't be that bad this time around as the pools are already partially set for the 3rd round (which the US gets an automatic bye into). If we don't at least get out of pool, even with a mid-range team, it would be a huge upset. On the women's side, Canada, Mexico, and Puerto Rico are all in different pools. Hondarus is in our pool only with 2 teams determined by earlier round finishes.
On the men's, the Dominican is in our pool along with 2 pool winners from an earlier round. Puerto Rico, Canda, Costa Rica and Mexico are guaranteed not to be in our pool.
This is all really too early to be discussed as the final (which US has a bye into for both genders) won't be played until 2016. I guess that is nice to know because by the time the final comes around we should know whether or not we have the automatic berths from rankings (or world championships). Maybe that would encourage a higher level team to go if they knew it was their only chance to make it.
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Post by volleyballjim on Sept 2, 2014 21:23:15 GMT -5
guest2: Comparing Rachael’s run to recent Whitney performances is a bit “anecdotal” since players DO carry others, play less/more formidable teams, seed significantly differently and the playing fields are very different. People in this thread seem to forget the parity that currently exists on the FIVB women’s field. Cz, China, Brazil, etc. make a win not as easy as it used to be for USA. As I stated somewhere in VT, Kerri/April were “almost out” on Friday of the FIVB Long Beach, only to go on to win. NO WAY is the difficulty of a FIVB-Women’s victory in ’07, IMHO, what it is today.
I’ve watched Whitney closely during her Kropp years and Rachael during her final “peak periods” as she seemed like such a nice gal and always partnered up in interesting ways. I think most women would face her ANYDAY vs. Whitney. Anyway, that just what it looked like courtside in my few tourneys each year I got to see. Watch a Rachael hit on the net and then Whitney, that test will be pretty clear.
Kerri/Whitney HAS to be evaluated along the lines of what it was: post-pregnancy; interim relationship. EY at her peak was a VERY formidable entity who could carry players. Not exactly the litmus test needed to go back to Rachel’s more solid footing.
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Post by guest2 on Sept 2, 2014 21:43:14 GMT -5
guest2: Comparing Rachael’s run to recent Whitney performances is a bit “anecdotal” since players DO carry others, play less/more formidable teams, seed significantly differently and the playing fields are very different. People in this thread seem to forget the parity that currently exists on the FIVB women’s field. Cz, China, Brazil, etc. make a win not as easy as it used to be for USA. As I stated somewhere in VT, Kerri/April were “almost out” on Friday of the FIVB Long Beach, only to go on to win. NO WAY is the difficulty of a FIVB-Women’s victory in ’07, IMHO, what it is today. I’ve watched Whitney closely during her Kropp years and Rachael during her final “peak periods” as she seemed like such a nice gal and always partnered up in interesting ways. I think most women would face her ANYDAY vs. Whitney. Anyway, that just what it looked like courtside in my few tourneys each year I got to see. Watch a Rachael hit on the net and then Whitney, that test will be pretty clear. Kerri/Whitney HAS to be evaluated along the lines of what it was: post-pregnancy; interim relationship. EY at her peak was a VERY formidable entity who could carry players. Not exactly the litmus test needed to go back to Rachel’s more solid footing. To answer your point about the hitting, go back and watch a Holly Mcpeak hit versus an Angela Rock one, or a Brook Sweat versus Emily Day. Whitney just isnt very good. Her finishes this year are almost exactly the same as Kim Dicello. If Kerri wasnt the best player when she was playing with Whitney, then it was April (actually it was probably April) which would make a fine excuse except Whitney/Kerri werent losing to April/Jen, they were losing to Summer/Emily. To your point that the FIVB is stronger now that just isnt true. Maybe a little deeper now, but the top is weaker. Again using 2007 to compare: At the top were Kerri/Misty who were better than April/Kerri who are the top team now. Second best were Larissa/Juliana, a top 5 all time team in their prime. Who is second best now? I dont know but they arent as good as Larissa/Juliana were. Maria/Juliana are the second ranked team now and they dont even have a win. Wins were a lot harder to come by in 2007 because if Kerri/Misty werent winning, Juliana/Larissa were. Among teams with no wins, but who were near their peaks: Shelda and Adriana near the end of their run (did win 3 in 2008), Chen and Xi at the start of theirs (won twice in 06), and Nicole and EY were coming on (first year together). Those are some awesome teams. There are some excellent players now, but who among them will we remember the way we will Julianna/Larissa or Shelda/Adriana, much less Misty/Kerri
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Post by volleyballjim on Sept 2, 2014 22:29:20 GMT -5
guest2: Tried to make the point that these “comparisons” are so multifaceted, they rarely, if ever pit one variable against another. All opinions are true in this arena. Tried to break it down to Whit v. Rachael, but with Angela, Brook, etc., its too hard to track. Re. the “Whitney finishes” this year? With which partner? That seems to change each week, again, a moving target and certainly not a level playing field against more stable partnerships.
Kerri/Mistry better than April/Misty? Well, I’ll spare VT this one, but right now, April IS the #1 server IN THE WORLD and 3 or 4 inches taller than Misty. AND they haven’t exactly stunk up the podium . . .
I did not say the FIVB was stronger, just more parity and any team can win on any weekend, it seems. . .
Sounds like you have better knowledge of the FIVB over the years, so I’ll give you the final volley, but I’m not buying Rachael being far superior to Whitney, just doesn’t seem to match what I’ve watched . . .
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Post by tree on Sept 3, 2014 9:38:32 GMT -5
When Kerri and April win 112 matches straight then you can tell me they are better than Kerri and Misty. Also during that streak the AVP had much better teams on the women side and the FIVB may not have had the parity it does now but the top teams were very good and more than capable of winning.
As far as Whitney and Rachel are concerned I always felt both ladies were overlooked for their talents. Rachel was actually a pretty darn good defender and I think people just forget because they tend to live in the what have you done for me lately. Whitney seems to have problems holding on to partners for some reason.
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Post by guest2 on Sept 3, 2014 10:22:43 GMT -5
guest2: Tried to make the point that these “comparisons” are so multifaceted, they rarely, if ever pit one variable against another. All opinions are true in this arena. Tried to break it down to Whit v. Rachael, but with Angela, Brook, etc., its too hard to track. Re. the “Whitney finishes” this year? With which partner? That seems to change each week, again, a moving target and certainly not a level playing field against more stable partnerships. Kerri/Mistry better than April/Misty? Well, I’ll spare VT this one, but right now, April IS the #1 server IN THE WORLD and 3 or 4 inches taller than Misty. AND they haven’t exactly stunk up the podium . . . I did not say the FIVB was stronger, just more parity and any team can win on any weekend, it seems. . . Sounds like you have better knowledge of the FIVB over the years, so I’ll give you the final volley, but I’m not buying Rachael being far superior to Whitney, just doesn’t seem to match what I’ve watched . . . I am driving the bandwagon on April being comparable to Misty, but in terms of those two teams, you have: 1. Older, less dynamic Kerri, playing her offside 2. Newer, less experienced team versus long time partners 3. Lots of split blocking 4. Less well matched partners, for example April's jump serve is more effective when she is taking chances and hitting it hard, but to some extent that takes away from the teams greatest strength which is Kerri dominating the net.
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Post by kro2488 on Sept 3, 2014 10:27:51 GMT -5
guest2: Tried to make the point that these “comparisons” are so multifaceted, they rarely, if ever pit one variable against another. All opinions are true in this arena. Tried to break it down to Whit v. Rachael, but with Angela, Brook, etc., its too hard to track. Re. the “Whitney finishes” this year? With which partner? That seems to change each week, again, a moving target and certainly not a level playing field against more stable partnerships. Kerri/Mistry better than April/Misty? Well, I’ll spare VT this one, but right now, April IS the #1 server IN THE WORLD and 3 or 4 inches taller than Misty. AND they haven’t exactly stunk up the podium . . . I did not say the FIVB was stronger, just more parity and any team can win on any weekend, it seems. . . Sounds like you have better knowledge of the FIVB over the years, so I’ll give you the final volley, but I’m not buying Rachael being far superior to Whitney, just doesn’t seem to match what I’ve watched . . . I am driving the bandwagon on April being comparable to Misty, but in terms of those two teams, you have: 1. Older, less dynamic Kerri, playing her offside 2. Newer, less experienced team versus long time partners 3. Lots of split blocking 4. Less well matched partners, for example April's jump serve is more effective when she is taking chances and hitting it hard, but to some extent that takes away from the teams greatest strength which is Kerri dominating the net. I don't think you can really compare April and Misty at all, especially Misty before the injury. They are completely different players and handle situations differently both mentally and physically.
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Post by volleyballjim on Sept 3, 2014 12:07:32 GMT -5
tree: Yeah, I hear ya...a bit of my "eternal optimism" is questionable as stated in other posts, BUT, I'm not real big on the "longevity thing". ALL-time winner, etc....Koufax didn't produce wins over the long term but, even though I am a SF Giants fan, he was the best pitcher ever, but really, only for 5 years....
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Post by guest2 on Sept 3, 2014 12:42:37 GMT -5
I am driving the bandwagon on April being comparable to Misty, but in terms of those two teams, you have: 1. Older, less dynamic Kerri, playing her offside 2. Newer, less experienced team versus long time partners 3. Lots of split blocking 4. Less well matched partners, for example April's jump serve is more effective when she is taking chances and hitting it hard, but to some extent that takes away from the teams greatest strength which is Kerri dominating the net. I don't think you can really compare April and Misty at all, especially Misty before the injury. They are completely different players and handle situations differently both mentally and physically. If they were the same, what would be the point of comparing them
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 20:54:24 GMT -5
Will never see another team, Men or Women do what Misty & Kerri did!! I was also one that didn't think that Kerri & April would be as good together as they have been. Although, they haven't really had to be that great on the AVP tour to win....Still somewhat concerned on how they will fare on the FIVB in the next couple of years. I think by the end of the 2015 season, we will have a pretty gold idea if Kerri & April will be a Rio Gold Medal contender.....Sure they will be a podium contender, but that's not what their looking for....
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Post by kro2488 on Sept 3, 2014 22:31:57 GMT -5
Will never see another team, Men or Women do what Misty & Kerri did!! I was also one that didn't think that Kerri & April would be as good together as they have been. Although, they haven't really had to be that great on the AVP tour to win....Still somewhat concerned on how they will fare on the FIVB in the next couple of years. I think by the end of the 2015 season, we will have a pretty gold idea if Kerri & April will be a Rio Gold Medal contender.....Sure they will be a podium contender, but that's not what their looking for.... Can't really ever decide by how they are doing on the tourney in the years leading up, the Olympics is its own tournament with it's own ebb and flow. You either find a way to do it or you don't.
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Post by volleyballjim on Sept 4, 2014 1:23:25 GMT -5
OK, Regardless of one’s history of wins and domination, etc.: Do you ACTUALLY think Kerri/Misty beat Kerri/April straight up? No chance? No third game, NEVER…just LIGHTS OUT in 2? Maybe 21-14 both games? Ladies and Gentlemen, the landscape has changed….
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Post by guest2 on Sept 4, 2014 5:47:42 GMT -5
Kerri/Misty beat Kerri/April probably 7 times out of 10. As previously stated, Kerri with Misty was better physically and playing her preferred side.
Kerri/Misty would be better at:
blocking defense extended rallies
equal in siding out (any advantage April has here over Misty is more than balanced by Kerri's age and offsidedness)
Kerri/April would be better at serving
Also you say things have changed since Kerri/Misty's heyday, and thats a reasonable statement to make, but comparing the present day to 2007, there are a lot of similarities:
Kerri is still the best player, Kerri still has the most wins. Larissa and Julianna are still right there in terms of being parts of two teams, one which is the second best and one which is top 5.
Some new teams have emerged and a lot of them are solid, but who that is playing now, that wasnt already contending in 2007, is a superstar? I would argue the FIVB is probably a little weaker now and thats why some players who have been playing for a while may be winning more. I would point to the success of the Czechs as an indicator of overall quality on the tour. Maybe they have improved a ton this year, and having only seen them play 1.5 times this year, thats definitely a possibility, but thats not a team that should have multiple wins (I think one may be an Open though)
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