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Post by guest2 on Jul 20, 2016 7:37:19 GMT -5
The competition at WUG's are like the proverbial box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get. Past events have had some serious World Tour talent in the draw, but it's not always that way. While there were some teams entered that Claes/Hughes will be seeing on the tour, like the bronze medalists from Spain, it looks like the overall field was pretty so-so. Still, it's always good to experience international play - and learning how to manage travel, rest, training, eating etc. - particularly since Claes/Hughes' future is the FIVB tour. I was assuming the international experience of this tournament is above and beyond even the Manhatten Open in their careers right now. FIVB > AVP at this point anyways, and if they felt it was in their best interest Internationally it makes sense. They are making a go at the FIVB as soon as their next collegiate season is over. The international experience would be valuable had they been tested at all during the tournament. However what lessons can they draw from how they should manage their time, jetlag, eating etc. when they won every game 21-12? Assume they had gone out and gotten smashed one night and straggled home hungover at 5 am. In a real FIVB they get killed the next day and they would learn the lesson we are discussing. In this event they win 21-17 rather than 21-10 and learn nothing at all. This was the equivalent of taking a practice trip with a soft practice in the country they traveled to. It also, once again, compromised the US tour in the eyes of fans - at least in the eyes of this one. I am not the biggest supporter of what Donald Sun has done with the AVP but he has provided a place for top pros to play and earn at home and the persistent disrespect and selfishness they show him and the AVP is disgraceful. If I were him and the AVP still isn't close to being profitable I would shut it down and issue a statement that started F you Kerri Walsh, F you April Ross, who - apologies to Naomi Campbell - refused to get out of bed for only $20,000 and then continued on to all the other players that have put even their most minor needs above the AVP and their fans. At a minimum, assuming Kerri is retiring this year, I would say "thanks but no thanks" if she tried to register for Chicago
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Post by JB Southpaw on Jul 20, 2016 8:11:35 GMT -5
I was assuming the international experience of this tournament is above and beyond even the Manhatten Open in their careers right now. FIVB > AVP at this point anyways, and if they felt it was in their best interest Internationally it makes sense. They are making a go at the FIVB as soon as their next collegiate season is over. The international experience would be valuable had they been tested at all during the tournament. However what lessons can they draw from how they should manage their time, jetlag, eating etc. when they won every game 21-12? Assume they had gone out and gotten smashed one night and straggled home hungover at 5 am. In a real FIVB they get killed the next day and they would learn the lesson we are discussing. In this event they win 21-17 rather than 21-10 and learn nothing at all. This was the equivalent of taking a practice trip with a soft practice in the country they traveled to. It also, once again, compromised the US tour in the eyes of fans - at least in the eyes of this one. I am not the biggest supporter of what Donald Sun has done with the AVP but he has provided a place for top pros to play and earn at home and the persistent disrespect and selfishness they show him and the AVP is disgraceful. If I were him and the AVP still isn't close to being profitable I would shut it down and issue a statement that started F you Kerri Walsh, F you April Ross, who - apologies to Naomi Campbell - refused to get out of bed for only $20,000 and then continued on to all the other players that have put even their most minor needs above the AVP and their fans. At a minimum, assuming Kerri is retiring this year, I would say "thanks but no thanks" if she tried to register for Chicago They talked about this on the broadcast at some point. Kerri & April were going to play 1 of NYC or MBO, The AVP really wanted them in NYC which meant they were passing on MBO. Seemed like open communication. Also, Kerri & April are the least offensive of this group. When Mid teams pass on AVP events to play in the FIVB Qualifiers, that is disrespecting. Yeah, I'm talking about Burik to name 1, but not only him.
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Post by guest2 on Jul 20, 2016 8:47:35 GMT -5
The international experience would be valuable had they been tested at all during the tournament. However what lessons can they draw from how they should manage their time, jetlag, eating etc. when they won every game 21-12? Assume they had gone out and gotten smashed one night and straggled home hungover at 5 am. In a real FIVB they get killed the next day and they would learn the lesson we are discussing. In this event they win 21-17 rather than 21-10 and learn nothing at all. This was the equivalent of taking a practice trip with a soft practice in the country they traveled to. It also, once again, compromised the US tour in the eyes of fans - at least in the eyes of this one. I am not the biggest supporter of what Donald Sun has done with the AVP but he has provided a place for top pros to play and earn at home and the persistent disrespect and selfishness they show him and the AVP is disgraceful. If I were him and the AVP still isn't close to being profitable I would shut it down and issue a statement that started F you Kerri Walsh, F you April Ross, who - apologies to Naomi Campbell - refused to get out of bed for only $20,000 and then continued on to all the other players that have put even their most minor needs above the AVP and their fans. At a minimum, assuming Kerri is retiring this year, I would say "thanks but no thanks" if she tried to register for Chicago They talked about this on the broadcast at some point. Kerri & April were going to play 1 of NYC or MBO, The AVP really wanted them in NYC which meant they were passing on MBO. Seemed like open communication. Also, Kerri & April are the least offensive of this group. When Mid teams pass on AVP events to play in the FIVB Qualifiers, that is disrespecting. Yeah, I'm talking about Burik to name 1, but not only him. Burik definitely on the list as well and very high up. His season also went to hell right after that and he hasnt played with Russ since so maybe karma caught up to him a little bit As to Kerri and April, they are less than 30 minutes from the event, they are going to be working out anyway, and maximum they would have had to play three competitive matches.
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Post by JB Southpaw on Jul 20, 2016 8:58:29 GMT -5
They talked about this on the broadcast at some point. Kerri & April were going to play 1 of NYC or MBO, The AVP really wanted them in NYC which meant they were passing on MBO. Seemed like open communication. Also, Kerri & April are the least offensive of this group. When Mid teams pass on AVP events to play in the FIVB Qualifiers, that is disrespecting. Yeah, I'm talking about Burik to name 1, but not only him. Burik definitely on the list as well and very high up. His season also went to hell right after that and he hasnt played with Russ since so maybe karma caught up to him a little bit As to Kerri and April, they are less than 30 minutes from the event, they are going to be working out anyway, and maximum they would have had to play three competitive matches. I'm sure seeing Phil have to forfeit, makes them ok with their decision.
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Post by downtheline on Jul 20, 2016 10:09:11 GMT -5
Guest2 what is the difference between beating AVP teams with average points scored against them still only being 12-13 points?
Why do C&H owe the AVP something versus USAV commitments when the latter has invested years & years of training dollars & support while JC says things like he doesn't want to see them matched up against AVP's best?
Do you really think DS wanted 2 college kids knocking on the door of his big $$ stars?
The fans wanted it, NBC tv wanted it, but not so much the AVP folks.
However with the free pass into a high profile & fun FIVB event, it was a no brainer to be loyal to their USAV commitments. Remember, it is the USAV team that ultimately supports their long term goals, not the bracket flipping boyz at the AVP.
As a footnote throwing BS into the wind that they might go out and tie one on shows you no little if nothing about these young ladies...
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Post by guest2 on Jul 20, 2016 12:49:46 GMT -5
I'm sure seeing Phil have to forfeit, makes them ok with their decision. Im sure they would say that but they are, presumably, not taking a month off but are practicing hard. Is there really a lesser risk of injury doing three days a week of drills, practice games etc. than playing five matches?
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Post by JB Southpaw on Jul 20, 2016 13:06:46 GMT -5
I'm sure seeing Phil have to forfeit, makes them ok with their decision. Im sure they would say that but they are, presumably, not taking a month off but are practicing hard. Is there really a lesser risk of injury doing three days a week of drills, practice games etc. than playing five matches? I would say yes. While you practice hard, you don't get put in as many awkward positions as you do during a contest. Just look at those 20 points Phil and Nick played against Jake and Casey, both teams made crazy plays with contorted body positions. While you practice scramble plays, they are never at full out game speed.
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Post by haze on Jul 20, 2016 14:01:22 GMT -5
I'm probably in the minority of thinking the players don't owe the AVP and Donald Sun anything. You want the players to prioritize the AVP - build a stable and financially respectable tour. The AVP lost that when they folded not once but 2 (three?) times in the last 15 years. It's not the players responsibility to get the tour to come back strong when they have a better outlet with the FIVB. The tour's going to have to do more to get the players back and then players have to give to bring the AVP back IMO.
Sun is doing a great thing by getting it established again, but it's going to take more than a couple years to get the players to prioritize it again, and the top players don't owe the AVP anything.
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Post by guest2 on Jul 20, 2016 14:12:53 GMT -5
Guest2 what is the difference between beating AVP teams with average points scored against them still only being 12-13 points? Why do C&H owe the AVP something versus USAV commitments when the latter has invested years & years of training dollars & support while JC says things like he doesn't want to see them matched up against AVP's best? Do you really think DS wanted 2 college kids knocking on the door of his big $$ stars? The fans wanted it, NBC tv wanted it, but not so much the AVP folks. However with the free pass into a high profile & fun FIVB event, it was a no brainer to be loyal to their USAV commitments. Remember, it is the USAV team that ultimately supports their long term goals, not the bracket flipping boyz at the AVP. As a footnote throwing BS into the wind that they might go out and tie one on shows you no little if nothing about these young ladies... Who is JC? The USAV team that supports their long term goals? Yes because USAV has traditionally been fantastic for beach players. Is the USAV going to pay them 55,000 a year? Thats what Kerri made the last year she played a full AVP schedule (and thats a 7 event schedule, in 2006, Kerri made $240k on the AVP). USAV controls access and pays expenses and some other things. (I'd love a detailed breakdown from those in the know) but how much is that support worth as opposed to a viable domestic tour? What do they owe the AVP? Maybe nothing but if the AVP folds, they spend the next ten years flying all over the world trying to make a living. Take a look at May/Walsh's heyday and how often they skipped FIVBs for AVPs. In 2007, Kerri played 16 AVPs and 8 FIVBs. Thats because flying to Austria or Beijing or Brazil week after week wears you down, and also limits your chances to improve (how do you practice when you play in Brazil one week, Fuzhou the next, then Seoul the week after?) I dont know what the difference would be, if they were in fact beating AVP teams that way. Out of 11 Main Draw matches they have two wins by those margins. In their other 9 matches they have either lost a game, or played a two point game (meaning they won 21-19, 23-21, etc.) I like them and think they are the second best team but if they played Lane/Summer or any other top 5 non Kerri/April team ten times I think they lose 2-3 matches. The WUG were not competitive at all. Of course Donald Sun wanted them on his tour. They are exciting future stars who just finished a very successful college season just down the road. Finally, maybe you know them well enough to say they don't go out and maybe they don't, I have no idea, but they are college juniors so saying they might go out in a hypothetical seems completely unobjectionable, in particular because that very issue has plagued many up and comers over the years.
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Post by guest2 on Jul 20, 2016 14:38:04 GMT -5
I'm probably in the minority of thinking the players don't owe the AVP and Donald Sun anything. You want the players to prioritize the AVP - build a stable and financially respectable tour. The AVP lost that when they folded not once but 2 (three?) times in the last 15 years. It's not the players responsibility to get the tour to come back strong when they have a better outlet with the FIVB. The tour's going to have to do more to get the players back and then players have to give to bring the AVP back IMO. Sun is doing a great thing by getting it established again, but it's going to take more than a couple years to get the players to prioritize it again, and the top players don't owe the AVP anything. If Donald is making money I would agree, but I doubt he is. He is struggling to build a business and the main beneficiaries of that business, in particular the younger ones, should pitch in. Even if they don't owe Donald or the AVP, perhaps they owe the fans. By any stretch playing Manhattan was a minor imposition. Even if Kerri could justify taking it off due to her injury history, April couldn't play? They couldn't do an appearance and sign autographs? (maybe they did and it wasnt mentioned but I didnt see it) And lets say players dont owe the AVP anything, isnt it still just stupid on their parts to not work with the guy who could make the top players rich? In 2006, when the AVP was doing well (or at least running and paying a full schedule) this is what Kerri made: AVP - 16 events - 240k FIVB - 8 events - 100k This was a bad year for Walsh, she only won three FIVB events but she has never made more than 155 on the FIVB. In 2014 AVP - 7 events - 50k FIVB - 10 events - 141k April Ross has been one of the best players in the world for a very long time and in her best year on the FIVB she made 140k. I dont see how teams, in particular teams that are never going to win three FIVBs in a year, can look at those numbers and not see how much they need a healthy AVP. Summer Ross has been a full time pro for four years and is one of the top players in the US. She has never made more in prize money than the manager of a 7-11. She has also made more this year in 5 AVPs than 11 FIVBs, so lets not act as if the FIVB is a shower of money for anyone not in the world top 5. She and Lane are averaging less than 2k per event on the FIVB.
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Post by JB Southpaw on Jul 20, 2016 15:01:32 GMT -5
I'm probably in the minority of thinking the players don't owe the AVP and Donald Sun anything. You want the players to prioritize the AVP - build a stable and financially respectable tour. The AVP lost that when they folded not once but 2 (three?) times in the last 15 years. It's not the players responsibility to get the tour to come back strong when they have a better outlet with the FIVB. The tour's going to have to do more to get the players back and then players have to give to bring the AVP back IMO. Sun is doing a great thing by getting it established again, but it's going to take more than a couple years to get the players to prioritize it again, and the top players don't owe the AVP anything. If Donald is making money I would agree, but I doubt he is. He is struggling to build a business and the main beneficiaries of that business, in particular the younger ones, should pitch in. Even if they don't owe Donald or the AVP, perhaps they owe the fans. By any stretch playing Manhattan was a minor imposition. Even if Kerri could justify taking it off due to her injury history, April couldn't play? They couldn't do an appearance and sign autographs? (maybe they did and it wasnt mentioned but I didnt see it) And lets say players dont owe the AVP anything, isnt it still just stupid on their parts to not work with the guy who could make the top players rich? In 2006, when the AVP was doing well (or at least running and paying a full schedule) this is what Kerri made: AVP - 16 events - 240k FIVB - 8 events - 100k This was a bad year for Walsh, she only won three FIVB events but she has never made more than 155 on the FIVB. In 2014 AVP - 7 events - 50k FIVB - 10 events - 141k April Ross has been one of the best players in the world for a very long time and in her best year on the FIVB she made 140k. I dont see how teams, in particular teams that are never going to win three FIVBs in a year, can look at those numbers and not see how much they need a healthy AVP. Summer Ross has been a full time pro for four years and is one of the top players in the US. She has never made more in prize money than the manager of a 7-11. She has also made more this year in 5 AVPs than 11 FIVBs, so lets not act as if the FIVB is a shower of money for anyone not in the world top 5. She and Lane are averaging less than 2k per event on the FIVB. Let's look at it a different way. The Crabbs are going to hit every AVP this year. Their worst finish to date (and lets concede In Chi too) is T-3. They will each make $30K, before taxes and expenses. This is a top 4 team, They have some sponsorship but I wouldn't say more than $15k each. That isn't much of a living (especially in Cali or HI). Now, imagine your Marty Lorenz, or Page, those 5ths and 7ths aren't cutting it. There are more Martys on tour than Kerris. The strength of a sport is in that mid tier, who grind out every tournament but still make upper $$. Golf, tennis have those players. At some point sponsors will catch on and see the trickle down effect. (here is a great survey the AVCA did on beach game growth) www.avca.org/res/uploads/media/2016AVCABeachVBSurveywComments-History-7-11-16.pdf
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Post by crawdaddy on Jul 20, 2016 15:32:19 GMT -5
I can't blame Kerri for skipping Manhattan. Everything she's been doing the last several years, all of the surgeries and rehab, playing with one arm, etc. have been about having one more run at Rio, and no doubt capitalizing on the publicity (and $$$) coming her way. She needs her shoulder to hold up for one more tournament and then she can ride off into the sunset. Why take a chance it doesn't? Yes, it's not that many matches, but you still have to play all out and I doubt Kerri takes many full swings, if any, in practice right now.
Also, Donald didn't really need Kerri at Manhattan since that tournament is basically SRO no matter who plays, plus he knew he'd have a male Olympic team to show on TV (and they were overdue to show a men's final).
That said, downtheline shouldn't be downplaying the importance of the AVP to future players like Claes & Hughes. There might be more money and better competition on the FIVB, but nobody in the United States (except a few of us volleydorks) pays attention to the Fuhzou Open or any other tournament 10 time zones away and without a live feed. Contrast that with the publicity those two got being on network television in San Francisco. That's huge for promotional and sponsorship potential.
Also, I agree with guest2 that there is absolutely no way Donald Sun didn't want Claes and Hughes in Manhattan. He'd have to be the worst volleyball promoter in the history of the sport.
Finally, since we were critical on this board about the early Sun-run AVP, we should give props when it's due. I think he's done a terrific job with the tour this year - some great venues, good presentation on NBC, and a generally higher level of excitement.
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Post by JB Southpaw on Jul 20, 2016 15:36:03 GMT -5
I can't blame Kerri for skipping Manhattan. Everything she's been doing the last several years, all of the surgeries and rehab, playing with one arm, etc. have been about having one more run at Rio, and no doubt capitalizing on the publicity (and $$$) coming her way. She needs her shoulder to hold up for one more tournament and then she can ride off into the sunset. Why take a chance it doesn't? Yes, it's not that many matches, but you still have to play all out and I doubt Kerri takes many full swings, if any, in practice right now. Also, Donald didn't really need Kerri at Manhattan since that tournament is basically SRO no matter who plays plus he knew he'd have a male Olympic team to show on TV (and they were overdue to show a men's final). That said, downtheline shouldn't be downplaying the importance of the AVP to future players like Claes & Hughes. There might be more money and better competition on the FIVB, but nobody in the United States (except a few of us volleydorks) pays attention to the Fuhzou Open or any other tournament 10 time zones away and without a live feed. Contrast that with the publicity those two got being on network television in San Francisco. That's huge for promotional and sponsorship potential. Also, I agree with guest2 that there is absolutely no way Donald Sun didn't want Claes and Hughes in Manhattan. He'd have to be the worst volleyball promoter in the world to not want them entered. Finally, since we were critical on this board about the early Sun-run AVP, we should give props when it's due. I think he's done a terrific job with the tour this year - some great venues, good presentation on NBC, and a generally higher level of excitement.
100% agree, it's hard to stay patient, but that's what is needed. I'm interested in seeing what the Post Olympics brings.
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Post by JB Southpaw on Jul 20, 2016 15:58:12 GMT -5
I want to talk about another "for instance" Look at a team that played this last week AVP. Osborn/Rice. They got in by AVPNext, but the also won the Tx NVL this year.
They took a 9th in MBO (Not a bad debut). So what would you do? There are 3 NVLs this year (2 before the next AVP), and 1 AVP. Do they go back to the NVL, and burn the AVP bridge? but make more $$ or do they hold out and only play the AVP (which they'd probably be in the Q )?
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Post by guest2 on Jul 20, 2016 17:08:57 GMT -5
I can't blame Kerri for skipping Manhattan. Everything she's been doing the last several years, all of the surgeries and rehab, playing with one arm, etc. have been about having one more run at Rio, and no doubt capitalizing on the publicity (and $$$) coming her way. She needs her shoulder to hold up for one more tournament and then she can ride off into the sunset. Why take a chance it doesn't? Yes, it's not that many matches, but you still have to play all out and I doubt Kerri takes many full swings, if any, in practice right now. This is a fair point and in retrospect Kerri missing is reasonable - I still think she should have shown up and at least done an appearance. April should have played though Finally, since we were critical on this board about the early Sun-run AVP, we should give props when it's due. I think he's done a terrific job with the tour this year - some great venues, good presentation on NBC, and a generally higher level of excitement. I dont think Sun has done great this year, no new tournaments is an issue, but definitely much better than last. A lot of improvements
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