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Post by guest2 on Aug 14, 2017 10:19:54 GMT -5
interesting topic. I've thought about this before when I first saw the two Dutch guys succeed. However it seems to me that having a good blocker and a good defender (who can side out) is still more effective than having two big hitters. Teams that serve/hit well but don't defend well tend to be more inconsistent than teams with good defense and overall good ball control. If you look at the results this year, you will see that in most cases a team with a good defender won in the end. (Phil & NICK, Alison & BRUNO, Simon & ALVARO, Pedro & GUTO, Krasilnikov & LIAMIN). Is there any reason that the skills of blocking and defending are inherently more consistent than serving and hitting? It seems like a game dependent on transitions adds an element of luck with long out-of-system rallies. Maybe Evandro and Andre can raise their level of serving/hitting consistency. Even if they can't, wouldn't you rather have the upside of a high-risk, high-reward strategy, especially with so much parity in the men's game? I was thinking about this during the Vienna finals. In that 22-20 second set both teams were siding out so consistently that it would have been something like 2-1 under side out scoring. Even if Phil and Nick play their best, they are still not going to win every tournament. But it feels like when the younger two-bigs teams (Andre/Evandro, Brouwer/Meeuwsen, even the Cubans) are at their best, they are pretty much unstoppable. So I think it's a fair question to wonder whether this is the wave of the future. I don't think Evandro/Andre and Evandro specifically need to raise the consistency of their skills that much, they need to raise the consistency of their effort and concentration, maybe it amounts to the same thing. Phil/Nick is a poor comparison because of the top teams, Nick is by far the worst player on any of them. Nick completely dialed in on offense will still give up a ton of points. The reasons Phil/Nick won't always win at their best is quite simply that Nick's best is not that good (in comparison to someone like Bruno). Phil and Bruno would win 75% of events if they played together. As to consistency, I think blocking is inherently more consistent because it involves fewer variables, moves and fewer quick reactions than defense and hitting. Serving is less consistent because it has to be so precise in comparison to the other skills, plus the elements play a much larger factor because the ball is in the air longer.
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Post by guest2 on Aug 14, 2017 10:21:25 GMT -5
So should we be looking for a Doherty Delhauser pairing in the future!! The trouble with Doherty/Dalhausser is you would lose in several areas, including blocking. That said a team of Lambo/Phil back in the day would have been incredible
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Post by Semp12 on Aug 14, 2017 12:20:53 GMT -5
Thinking back, I remember Lambo as this blocker who was just as big (size-wise) as Phil, but at 6'6" he really could fit in with the defenders of today.
I literally cannot remember any of the King/Queen of the beach events where players had to do everything and how they looked.
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Post by haze on Aug 14, 2017 12:28:52 GMT -5
Was Lamb a good defender? The problem with undersized blockers that are good players are people think they should just move to defense like it's a transferable skill. I read people say that about Crabb here. Has anyone actually seen Crabb play defense? It isn't pretty. Drost tried that, and he wasn't terrible, but he wasn't at all comparable to his peers.
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Post by JB Southpaw on Aug 14, 2017 12:30:56 GMT -5
Was Lamb a good defender? The problem with undersized blockers that are good players are people think they should just move to defense like it's a transferable skill. I read people say that about Crabb here. Has anyone actually seen Crabb play defense? It isn't pretty. Drost tried that, and he wasn't terrible, but he wasn't at all comparable to his peers. I thought Crabb has looked ok while split blocking with Rosie.
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Post by haze on Aug 14, 2017 12:41:08 GMT -5
Was Lamb a good defender? The problem with undersized blockers that are good players are people think they should just move to defense like it's a transferable skill. I read people say that about Crabb here. Has anyone actually seen Crabb play defense? It isn't pretty. Drost tried that, and he wasn't terrible, but he wasn't at all comparable to his peers. I thought Crabb has looked ok while split blocking with Rosie. I don't think he makes plays. He can dig balls that come to him but do can lower level open players at grassroots level.
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Post by JB Southpaw on Aug 14, 2017 12:43:59 GMT -5
I thought Crabb has looked ok while split blocking with Rosie. I don't think he makes plays. He can dig balls that come to him but do can lower level open players at grassroots level. Haven't seen enough to say one way or the other definitively.
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Post by guest2 on Aug 14, 2017 12:45:26 GMT -5
Was Lamb a good defender? The problem with undersized blockers that are good players are people think they should just move to defense like it's a transferable skill. I read people say that about Crabb here. Has anyone actually seen Crabb play defense? It isn't pretty. Drost tried that, and he wasn't terrible, but he wasn't at all comparable to his peers. I'm not sure but two things I am sure of: 1) When teams had to serve him, they almost always lost 2) Playing defense behind Phil is about as simple as it gets Crabb on defense is not great, but Crabb generally is not great. Not sure what skill of his is elite
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Post by rainmaker on Aug 14, 2017 12:48:16 GMT -5
Phil and Bruno = YES!!!! make it happen lol....
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Post by JB Southpaw on Aug 14, 2017 12:56:52 GMT -5
Was Lamb a good defender? The problem with undersized blockers that are good players are people think they should just move to defense like it's a transferable skill. I read people say that about Crabb here. Has anyone actually seen Crabb play defense? It isn't pretty. Drost tried that, and he wasn't terrible, but he wasn't at all comparable to his peers. I'm not sure but two things I am sure of: 1) When teams had to serve him, they almost always lost 2) Playing defense behind Phil is about as simple as it gets Crabb on defense is not great, but Crabb generally is not great. Not sure what skill of his is elite I like Trevor a lot. But I still remember 1st watching him play in St. Pete AVP Q a few years back, I thought he was just off from what Tri did/was in everything. Tri was a bit bigger Better setter More athletic/dynamic Finisher But I'd still like to see him try defense.
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Post by ajm on Aug 14, 2017 14:20:55 GMT -5
Is there any reason that the skills of blocking and defending are inherently more consistent than serving and hitting? It seems like a game dependent on transitions adds an element of luck with long out-of-system rallies. Maybe Evandro and Andre can raise their level of serving/hitting consistency. Even if they can't, wouldn't you rather have the upside of a high-risk, high-reward strategy, especially with so much parity in the men's game? I was thinking about this during the Vienna finals. In that 22-20 second set both teams were siding out so consistently that it would have been something like 2-1 under side out scoring. Even if Phil and Nick play their best, they are still not going to win every tournament. But it feels like when the younger two-bigs teams (Andre/Evandro, Brouwer/Meeuwsen, even the Cubans) are at their best, they are pretty much unstoppable. So I think it's a fair question to wonder whether this is the wave of the future. I don't think Evandro/Andre and Evandro specifically need to raise the consistency of their skills that much, they need to raise the consistency of their effort and concentration, maybe it amounts to the same thing. Phil/Nick is a poor comparison because of the top teams, Nick is by far the worst player on any of them. Nick completely dialed in on offense will still give up a ton of points. The reasons Phil/Nick won't always win at their best is quite simply that Nick's best is not that good (in comparison to someone like Bruno). Phil and Bruno would win 75% of events if they played together. As to consistency, I think blocking is inherently more consistent because it involves fewer variables, moves and fewer quick reactions than defense and hitting. Serving is less consistent because it has to be so precise in comparison to the other skills, plus the elements play a much larger factor because the ball is in the air longer. Agreed about Phil and Bruno, but there's no American defender anywhere near Bruno's level right now. The trade-off with Nick is that if you replace him with a top defender with more offense like Casey or even Rosie you reduce the effectiveness of Phil's block because they can't touch as many balls as Nick can. I don't think even Phil/Todd in their prime would be as dominant now as they were 10 years ago. The rest of the world has just gotten so much better. It is interesting seeing Brazil choosing its partnerships and having Andre/Evandro pay off with a gold at worlds. If USAV were in charge the same way would they try a similar pairing of bigs? The US doesn't have the depth of talent on the mens' side as Brazil, but you could imagine trying something like a young Trevor/Cook-type team and seeing what happens.
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Post by ardatak on Aug 14, 2017 14:28:09 GMT -5
So should we be looking for a Doherty Delhauser pairing in the future!!
I'd love to see Phil & Jake play one together. They can both play their natural side, switch block, and fluid enough to get a couple of digs.
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Post by ciscokeed on Aug 14, 2017 18:02:19 GMT -5
I was being somewhat facetious about Doherty and Delhauser- but I do believe the way to win in volleyball is to sideout til the cows come home...scoring will happen- siding out doesn't
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Post by guest2 on Aug 15, 2017 4:27:04 GMT -5
So should we be looking for a Doherty Delhauser pairing in the future!!
I'd love to see Phil & Jake play one together. They can both play their natural side, switch block, and fluid enough to get a couple of digs.
I wonder how Jake's career would have looked if he were German or Dutch etc. Really from any good VB country where he wouldn't spend his career playing with the best defender Phil didn't want.
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Post by swift on Aug 16, 2017 7:20:27 GMT -5
I'd love to see Phil & Jake play one together. They can both play their natural side, switch block, and fluid enough to get a couple of digs.
I wonder how Jake's career would have looked if he were German or Dutch etc. Really from any good VB country where he wouldn't spend his career playing with the best defender Phil didn't want. I don't think it would have looked much different. I think Jake has had good partners in his career. In my opinion Jake is a very very good player but he doesn't have that special something that you need to beat the best teams when it counts.
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