|
Post by Fight On! on Dec 31, 2017 2:25:19 GMT -5
hello again doubletrojan - you were kind enough to admit that your support for the brazilian leagues policy was right "in your opinion", yet now that opinion has become again some kind of expert and unrefutable and unarguable truth among PhDs & MDs. This is simply a choice of those in authority - not science, not fact or otherwise demonstrated and repeatable experimental results of transgender volleyball performance for men who played professional volleyball having real/unprovable/no performance advantages over women who play professional volleyball. i support any transgender/ or otherwise athlete that plays according to the rules they are given. i don't support the rules of the brazilian league - a philosophical position as there are no true scientific/experimental proofs to support those rules - just a policy based on opinions and moreso political correctness. please stop conflating an opinion based policy on non-existent fact/science if you can't cite the peer-reviewed (double blind ?) studies of this situation that demonstrates the validity of your opinion. i hope you will enjoy the challenge. Uh, did you skip the class on research methods on college? How do you propose to do a double blind study for this? Because that's not really how that works... A quasi-experimental design, regression discontinuity, would be plausible.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2017 3:04:39 GMT -5
Not sure if these videos were posted earlier in this thread, but I wanted to share:
Not sure about the ridiculous advantage she's supposed to have... To be honest, some of the things I saw Kathryn Plummer do this season makes Tiffany look like a poser. And she ain't got nothin' on Simone Lee out of the back row or her wrist-away shot into zone 4.
I mean honestly, Tiffany isn't doing anything significantly better than Gamova in her prime, Hooker in 2011-12, or any of the Cubans from the 90s. Is she better than Zhu right now? Or better than the player Boskovic is becoming?
For fun, compare/contrast the above videos to this one:
|
|
|
Post by mongoliavolleyball on Dec 31, 2017 9:56:11 GMT -5
I wonder what would happen if a transgender person joins an NFL team... Any comments from Trump?
|
|
|
Post by ned3vball on Dec 31, 2017 10:45:52 GMT -5
Not sure about the ridiculous advantage she's supposed to have... To be honest, some of the things I saw Kathryn Plummer do this season makes Tiffany look like a poser. And she ain't got nothin' on Simone Lee out of the back row or her wrist-away shot into zone 4. I mean honestly, Tiffany isn't doing anything significantly better than Gamova in her prime, Hooker in 2011-12, or any of the Cubans from the 90s. Is she better than Zhu right now? Or better than the player Boskovic is becoming? As a man he was what, (I have no idea), the 1000th best player in the world? And now as a female is being compared to some of the best female players across decades? Doesn't sound like an even trade.
|
|
|
Post by Reach on Dec 31, 2017 12:19:07 GMT -5
Not sure if these videos were posted earlier in this thread, but I wanted to share: Not sure about the ridiculous advantage she's supposed to have... To be honest, some of the things I saw Kathryn Plummer do this season makes Tiffany look like a poser. And she ain't got nothin' on Simone Lee out of the back row or her wrist-away shot into zone 4. I mean honestly, Tiffany isn't doing anything significantly better than Gamova in her prime, Hooker in 2011-12, or any of the Cubans from the 90s. Is she better than Zhu right now? Or better than the player Boskovic is becoming? For fun, compare/contrast the above videos to this one: Looks pretty good to me..
|
|
|
Post by jcvball22 on Dec 31, 2017 12:40:57 GMT -5
Not sure about the ridiculous advantage she's supposed to have... To be honest, some of the things I saw Kathryn Plummer do this season makes Tiffany look like a poser. And she ain't got nothin' on Simone Lee out of the back row or her wrist-away shot into zone 4. I mean honestly, Tiffany isn't doing anything significantly better than Gamova in her prime, Hooker in 2011-12, or any of the Cubans from the 90s. Is she better than Zhu right now? Or better than the player Boskovic is becoming? As a man he was what, (I have no idea), the 1000th best player in the world? And now as a female is being compared to some of the best female players across decades? Doesn't sound like an even trade. So, would it be acceptable to people if she wasn't good?
|
|
|
Post by ned3vball on Dec 31, 2017 13:18:39 GMT -5
As a man he was what, (I have no idea), the 1000th best player in the world? And now as a female is being compared to some of the best female players across decades? Doesn't sound like an even trade. So, would it be acceptable to people if she wasn't good? Well, yes, because it really is about winning and losing, but that is not what I was getting at. Experts can say that she now falls within female norms and I wont disagree, but she is now a better player as a female. Coming by your abilities by birth will never be the same as coming by them via modern medicine. And she doesn't have to be the best player, she just has to be good enough to help her team win. It just does not feel right. If my daughter had ever played against a team with a transgender player that helped the other team win I would have felt my daughter was cheated. More power to anyone who wants to change their life in this way, but your life is now different. I don't think there is an answer other than someone is always going to feel unhappy.
|
|
|
Post by jcvball22 on Dec 31, 2017 13:42:32 GMT -5
So, would it be acceptable to people if she wasn't good? Well, yes, because it really is about winning and losing, but that is not what I was getting at. Experts can say that she now falls within female norms and I wont disagree, but she is now a better player as a female. Coming by your abilities by birth will never be the same as coming by them via modern medicine. And she doesn't have to be the best player, she just has to be good enough to help her team win. It just does not feel right. If my daughter had ever played against a team with a transgender player that helped the other team win I would have felt my daughter was cheated. More power to anyone who wants to change their life in this way, but your life is now different. I don't think there is an answer other than someone is always going to feel unhappy. That's absurd. So, if your daughter played against a team that had a player that was clearly better than everyone else (not transgender), would you feel cheated then? Sports are an inherently unequal proposition. Your premise is ridiculous. The problem is how we are framing this discussion: as if volleyball and winning is the only thing that matters. Everyone seems to be making this about gender transition so someone can play a sport. That isn't the case. A transgender person who transitions with hormones and surgery isn't doing it do they can be a better athlete. That may happen, but it certainly isn't the rationale. No one is that committed to being great at women's volleyball. Your problem seems to be that, comparatively, she is a better player against the female competition now than she was against her competition when she was playing in the men's league. Well, no kidding. Most women are better players against female competition than they would be in men's leagues. This is not rocket science. But holding her to a different standard than other women is ridiculous and there are rules and guidelines based on the science and information that is available that have been put in place by our governing bodies to allow her play if she meets certain criteria. She does. It really just comes down to this: Do you believe her humanity? If you believe she does not have the same rights as others to pursue the things she loves because of her transition, then the answer is no. And that is unfortunate.
|
|
|
Post by Reach on Dec 31, 2017 13:46:11 GMT -5
Well how would the transition for a WTM be in the sport? Imagine a 6'7" woman transitioning and then attempting to play the mens game. Doesn't mean it could happen but it seems the odds wouldn't favor the WTM as it would the MTW.
|
|
|
Post by jcvball22 on Dec 31, 2017 13:46:48 GMT -5
Well how would the transition for a WTM be in the sport? Imagine a 6'7" woman transitioning and then attempting to play the mens game. Doesn't mean it could happen but it seems the odds wouldn't favor the WTM as it would the MTW. Why does that matter?
|
|
|
Post by ned3vball on Dec 31, 2017 14:08:52 GMT -5
Well, yes, because it really is about winning and losing, but that is not what I was getting at. Experts can say that she now falls within female norms and I wont disagree, but she is now a better player as a female. Coming by your abilities by birth will never be the same as coming by them via modern medicine. And she doesn't have to be the best player, she just has to be good enough to help her team win. It just does not feel right. If my daughter had ever played against a team with a transgender player that helped the other team win I would have felt my daughter was cheated. More power to anyone who wants to change their life in this way, but your life is now different. I don't think there is an answer other than someone is always going to feel unhappy. That's absurd. So, if your daughter played against a team that had a player that was clearly better than everyone else (not transgender), would you feel cheated then? Sports are an inherently unequal proposition. Your premise is ridiculous. The problem is how we are framing this discussion: as if volleyball and winning is the only thing that matters. Everyone seems to be making this about gender transition so someone can play a sport. That isn't the case. A transgender person who transitions with hormones and surgery isn't doing it do they can be a better athlete. That may happen, but it certainly isn't the rationale. No one is that committed to being great at women's volleyball. Your problem seems to be that, comparatively, she is a better player against the female competition now than she was against her competition when she was playing in the men's league. Well, no kidding. Most women are better players against female competition than they would be in men's leagues. This is not rocket science. But holding her to a different standard than other women is ridiculous and there are rules and guidelines based on the science and information that is available that have been put in place by our governing bodies to allow her play if she meets certain criteria. She does. It really just comes down to this: Do you believe her humanity? If you believe she does not have the same rights as others to pursue the things she loves because of her transition, then the answer is no. And that is unfortunate. Like I said, someone is going to feel unhappy. It is not a ridiculous proposition to consider a natural born female and a transgender female different. We are framing the discussion in the context of volleyball and winning since it is a volleyball chat board. I agree that she did not do this to become a beter volleyball player but the law of unintended consequences has kicked in. Humanity? your being dramatic. Yes, she has a right to purse whatever she loves. and I have a right to feel how I do strictly in the context of volleyball.
|
|
|
Post by vbfamily on Dec 31, 2017 14:11:52 GMT -5
Well how would the transition for a WTM be in the sport? Imagine a 6'7" woman transitioning and then attempting to play the mens game. Doesn't mean it could happen but it seems the odds wouldn't favor the WTM as it would the MTW. Why does that matter? Because I think it limits professional opportunities and compensation in a sport they love for those born female.
|
|
|
Post by jcvball22 on Dec 31, 2017 14:13:07 GMT -5
Because I think it limits professional opportunities and compensation in a sport they love for those born female. No it doesn't. And that wasn't what the previous poster stated anyway.
|
|
|
Post by jcvball22 on Dec 31, 2017 14:16:28 GMT -5
That's absurd. So, if your daughter played against a team that had a player that was clearly better than everyone else (not transgender), would you feel cheated then? Sports are an inherently unequal proposition. Your premise is ridiculous. The problem is how we are framing this discussion: as if volleyball and winning is the only thing that matters. Everyone seems to be making this about gender transition so someone can play a sport. That isn't the case. A transgender person who transitions with hormones and surgery isn't doing it do they can be a better athlete. That may happen, but it certainly isn't the rationale. No one is that committed to being great at women's volleyball. Your problem seems to be that, comparatively, she is a better player against the female competition now than she was against her competition when she was playing in the men's league. Well, no kidding. Most women are better players against female competition than they would be in men's leagues. This is not rocket science. But holding her to a different standard than other women is ridiculous and there are rules and guidelines based on the science and information that is available that have been put in place by our governing bodies to allow her play if she meets certain criteria. She does. It really just comes down to this: Do you believe her humanity? If you believe she does not have the same rights as others to pursue the things she loves because of her transition, then the answer is no. And that is unfortunate. Like I said, someone is going to feel unhappy. It is not a ridiculous proposition to consider a natural born female and a transgender female different. We are framing the discussion in the context of volleyball and winning since it is a volleyball chat board. I agree that she did not do this to become a beter volleyball player but the law of unintended consequences has kicked in. Humanity? your being dramatic. Yes, she has a right to purse whatever she loves. and I have a right to feel how I do strictly in the context of volleyball. You can feel any way you want. It has no effect on the outcome, as rules and guidelines have been created by the governing bodies for this specific potential issue. So it's just tilting at windmills and screaming into the wind. If we see a million-person influx of transgender MTF to the sport, we can have another conversation. Until then, the numbers it effects are so infinitesimal as to be insignificant. People are merely bothered by this because it is visible, not because it is significant.
|
|
|
Post by volleyba11 on Dec 31, 2017 16:12:36 GMT -5
Like I said, someone is going to feel unhappy. It is not a ridiculous proposition to consider a natural born female and a transgender female different. We are framing the discussion in the context of volleyball and winning since it is a volleyball chat board. I agree that she did not do this to become a beter volleyball player but the law of unintended consequences has kicked in. Humanity? your being dramatic. Yes, she has a right to purse whatever she loves. and I have a right to feel how I do strictly in the context of volleyball. You can feel any way you want. It has no effect on the outcome, as rules and guidelines have been created by the governing bodies for this specific potential issue. So it's just tilting at windmills and screaming into the wind. If we see a million-person influx of transgender MTF to the sport, we can have another conversation. Until then, the numbers it effects are so infinitesimal as to be insignificant. People are merely bothered by this because it is visible, not because it is significant. Just because there are rules and guidelines in place right now does not mean that they are the best possible set of rules. If that were the case, old rules would never be changed or adjusted. Clearly that is not the case. Screaming into the wind is 95% of VT... If we really thought we could make some big change we would be talking to FIVB, not a bunch of volleynerds behind a computer.. It may be insignificant to you, but to the other players in the league it may be a very big deal. Again, regardless of how significant it is to the entire volleyball world in general, people here seem to have pages and pages of things to say about the topic. Don't try to shut it down saying it is insignificant when there are over 16 pages worth of discussion on it.. If you don't care or are offended, pick a different thread.
|
|