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Post by greenthumb on Dec 9, 2018 16:49:08 GMT -5
It would be interesting if Robyn took Hawaii in the opposite direction of every other program which seems to value serve and serve receive very highly. Not having good DSes (serve receive and digs) and emphasizing hitters even more than most programs would set Hawaii apart from others. If I understand this correctly, you're kind of telling anyone who isn't at least 6' or 6'1" to not bother applying (except one libero every 3-4 years) regardless of how good a player she is, since many DSes are former OHs who were too short. I'd think you'd want at least 1 or 2 DSes just to be a backup in case the libero goes down. If you have two, that's pretty much what most programs do. If your libero is excellent and stays healthy, no DS might work. It seems very risky, though. Edit to add: I don't think there is always a huge difference between the defensive abilities of a DS and the opposite that she replaces. That's why it might work (assuming that everyone stays healthy). E.g., if Iosia had only been an opposite, I think she probably would have been ok in the back row. Okino was better but by how much? Fitzmorris was very good in the back row in high school (though not in D1 bc she lacks the experience there). Formico is better but if Fitz had always played all around at Stanford, how much better would Formico be? I do think that DSes are generally better at serve receive/floor defense than opposites, both bc they made the team bc of their digging and serve receive abilities (rather than blocking and hitting abilities) and bc that's all they focus on in college. But you do get an extra weapon by having your opposite play all the way around. Interesting points. If I’m following, you’re pondering whether players who play all the way around narrow the ability gap between themselves and players who specialize in serve/receive and defense because by having to play that way, they gain gametime experience. I’d agree for some players (recent Hawaii players including Greeley, Taylor and — had the intention been followed sooner — Maglio). So yes, some have the knack and potential to be high-level generalists. But two questions come to mind. First, unless a player is incredibly durable (Maglio and Granato for example), is playing all the way around worth the injury risk, both for impact on team and of course on the player herself (Taylor)? Second, and I hate arguing for this, is there an upside for continuing to lean toward specialization? As in, if a player is kept in as a generalist, does she lose out on developing to her highest potential, or is the difference not that great? I would come down in the “it depends on the individual” camp. And this is where it’s unfortunate that players with remaining indoor eligibility are being discouraged from going out for sand play. Perhaps it is just too tough — and might cause difficulties — to facilitate Player A playing both seasons, but all-but-barring a more injury-prone Player B from doing the same. |
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Post by hwnstunner on Dec 9, 2018 16:50:32 GMT -5
Thank you for the video on Hellvig, first I've seen. Love what I saw. I like that the highlights included even her "off" plays versus just her highlights (like the Westerberg one). Hellvig and Wagoner have the tools to play all six rotations. Good instincts from the back row... and they can pass, serve and play defense - HUGE.
Hellvig seems to have more pop than Wagoner though. But I like these two outsides. I agree with the poster that compared them to Greeley (Wagoner) and Hartong (Hellvig). Not saying they are at that level, but the potential of their game seems to liken to those two.
Hellvig really brings an exclamation point to the five recruits for me. She's a good one.
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Post by hwnstunner on Dec 9, 2018 16:55:57 GMT -5
The only reason Dave kept so many DS was because it was a way to give local players a chance to play Division I volleyball. Simple as that. There were many that didn't even play much or even finish their four years.
Aside from a few mainland walk on DS, most of Hawaii's defensive specialist and even scholarship liberos have been local girls. Yes, Hawaii has a great tradition with local defensive specialists... so Dave kept that going.
However, it was a catch 22 at times because we'd have liberos who were outside hitters and setters in high school, which meant they had to learn their position and catch up to being Division I ready. We had some misfires in backcourt specialists over the years because of this.
I rather Hawaii recruit liberos that have been liberos in high school and club. A high calibre libero is just as important to the game as a high calibre outside, middle, setter and opposite. I think Robyn will keep less DS walk ons, but go after the best liberos she can find.
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Post by baytree on Dec 9, 2018 16:57:40 GMT -5
That's what happens when you have different sub rules. If you have fewer substitutions allowed (like when Robyn played for the US team), you're going to use fewer DSes. In today's NCAA game, almost all coaches use a DS instead of an opposite or OH (less common but not rare). It's a way to maximize the likelihood of scoring points, at least in most coachs' opinion. If your DS is better at serve receive/digging than your opposite/OH (and if the probable points lost from having the opp/OH play all around instead of the DS exceeds the probable points from that opp/OH scoring from the back), it makes sense to let the DS play in the back instead of the opp/OH. It doesn't have that much to do with the opposite/OH being able to play all around, although it does encourage MBs and Opps to specialize and either ignore back row play or emphasize it less. On the other hand, when you have OH/OPP hitters that are capable of playing all the way around, it diversifies your offensive weapons. Now the "D" set comes into play, also the "pike" set, too. Whereas, when you sub in a DS for an OH, and/or OPP, those kinds of sets do not come into play, at all. The setter is limited to who she can set to. Which is why I put in the highlighted part. You need to consider that. Almost all coaches think that the gain from having a better passer/digger in the back (via a DS) exceeds the gain from having an extra hitter (via keeping the opp/OH in the back). I don't know of any coaches that don't routinely use at least one DS plus their libero. There probably are some. |
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Post by Wiz on Dec 9, 2018 16:57:58 GMT -5
Thank you for the video on Hellvig, first I've seen. Love what I saw. I like that the highlights included even her "off" plays versus just her highlights (like the Westerberg one). Hellvig and Wagoner have the tools to play all six rotations. Good instincts from the back row... and they can pass, serve and play defense - HUGE. Hellvig seems to have more pop than Wagoner though. But I like these two outsides. I agree with the poster that compared them to Greeley (Wagoner) and Hartong (Hellvig). Not saying they are at that level, but the potential of their game seems to liken to those two. Hellvig really brings an exclamation point to the five recruits for me. She's a good one. That's the problem, Wagoner is no terminator. She isn't an offensive threat, more of a ball control/handling outside hitter. |
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Post by wahinefan on Dec 9, 2018 17:12:08 GMT -5
Thank you for the video on Hellvig, first I've seen. Love what I saw. I like that the highlights included even her "off" plays versus just her highlights (like the Westerberg one). Hellvig and Wagoner have the tools to play all six rotations. Good instincts from the back row... and they can pass, serve and play defense - HUGE. Hellvig seems to have more pop than Wagoner though. But I like these two outsides. I agree with the poster that compared them to Greeley (Wagoner) and Hartong (Hellvig). Not saying they are at that level, but the potential of their game seems to liken to those two. Hellvig really brings an exclamation point to the five recruits for me. She's a good one. That's the problem, Wagoner is no terminator. She isn't an offensive threat, more of a ball control/handling outside hitter. I totally agree, when it comes to Wagoner. That is why I classify her more of a Kalei Greeley type of OH hitter, a very good OH2 player. Kalei Greeley, before she got hurt, was someone who would not hurt you offensively, but would really help you in the backrow. Hellvig is more the Terminator type of OH. Someone who you could classify as a more Emily Hartong type. |
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Post by volleyguy on Dec 9, 2018 17:16:27 GMT -5
That's what happens when you have different sub rules. If you have fewer substitutions allowed (like when Robyn played for the US team), you're going to use fewer DSes. In today's NCAA game, almost all coaches use a DS instead of an opposite or OH (less common but not rare). It's a way to maximize the likelihood of scoring points, at least in most coachs' opinion. If your DS is better at serve receive/digging than your opposite/OH (and if the probable points lost from having the opp/OH play all around instead of the DS exceeds the probable points from that opp/OH scoring from the back), it makes sense to let the DS play in the back instead of the opp/OH. It doesn't have that much to do with the opposite/OH being able to play all around, although it does encourage MBs and Opps to specialize and either ignore back row play or emphasize it less. On the other hand, when you have OH/OPP hitters that are capable of playing all the way around, it diversifies your offensive weapons. Now the "D" set comes into play, also the "pike" set, too. Whereas, when you sub in a DS for an OH, and/or OPP, those kinds of sets do not come into play, at all. The setter is limited to who she can set to. There will be some back row attack,options, but I don't see any of these hitters being able to hit the D set effectively, at the outset anyway. |
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Post by hwnstunner on Dec 9, 2018 17:17:49 GMT -5
Thank you for the video on Hellvig, first I've seen. Love what I saw. I like that the highlights included even her "off" plays versus just her highlights (like the Westerberg one). Hellvig and Wagoner have the tools to play all six rotations. Good instincts from the back row... and they can pass, serve and play defense - HUGE. Hellvig seems to have more pop than Wagoner though. But I like these two outsides. I agree with the poster that compared them to Greeley (Wagoner) and Hartong (Hellvig). Not saying they are at that level, but the potential of their game seems to liken to those two. Hellvig really brings an exclamation point to the five recruits for me. She's a good one. That's the problem, Wagoner is no terminator. She isn't an offensive threat, more of a ball control/handling outside hitter. Which is fine as long as Hawaii has firepower at OH1, opposite and the middle. Hawaii got to the Elite 8 with Kalei Greeley at OH2 opposite Manu-Olevao. She was the last true six rotation outside we had and she put down her fair share of important kills during important matches during her two seasons at OH. She was also rated No. 37 out of high school. Wagoner is No. 57 I believe, which is pretty darn good for Hawaii standards in recent years. She earned that ranking being the six-rotation outside that CAN hit. She was the MVP of a couple big-time club tournaments. If she can do her job and develop as a DI hitter, she'll be fine. Now, I'll easily take a terminating, high-flying, power-hitting outside over Wagoner if we get that. But right now, we don't. The SA had an article that she always liked Hawaii. It was her dream school after a few visits as a child. Dad's military connection to the islands. I know she was told she could hit, but if a terminating outside comes, our best libero prospect next season might actually be Wagoner. |
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Post by baytree on Dec 9, 2018 17:18:34 GMT -5
It would be interesting if Robyn took Hawaii in the opposite direction of every other program which seems to value serve and serve receive very highly. Not having good DSes (serve receive and digs) and emphasizing hitters even more than most programs would set Hawaii apart from others. If I understand this correctly, you're kind of telling anyone who isn't at least 6' or 6'1" to not bother applying (except one libero every 3-4 years) regardless of how good a player she is, since many DSes are former OHs who were too short. I'd think you'd want at least 1 or 2 DSes just to be a backup in case the libero goes down. If you have two, that's pretty much what most programs do. If your libero is excellent and stays healthy, no DS might work. It seems very risky, though. Edit to add: I don't think there is always a huge difference between the defensive abilities of a DS and the opposite that she replaces. That's why it might work (assuming that everyone stays healthy). E.g., if Iosia had only been an opposite, I think she probably would have been ok in the back row. Okino was better but by how much? Fitzmorris was very good in the back row in high school (though not in D1 bc she lacks the experience there). Formico is better but if Fitz had always played all around at Stanford, how much better would Formico be? I do think that DSes are generally better at serve receive/floor defense than opposites, both bc they made the team bc of their digging and serve receive abilities (rather than blocking and hitting abilities) and bc that's all they focus on in college. But you do get an extra weapon by having your opposite play all the way around. Interesting points. If I’m following, you’re pondering whether players who play all the way around narrow the ability gap between themselves and players who specialize in serve/receive and defense because by having to play that way, they gain gametime experience. I’d agree for some players (recent Hawaii players including Greeley, Taylor and — had the intention been followed sooner — Maglio). So yes, some have the knack and potential to be high-level generalists. But two questions come to mind. First, unless a player is incredibly durable (Maglio and Granato for example), is playing all the way around worth the injury risk, both for impact on team and of course on the player herself (Taylor)? Second, and I hate arguing for this, is there an upside for continuing to lean toward specialization? As in, if a player is kept in as a generalist, does she lose out on developing to her highest potential, or is the difference not that great? I would come down in the “it depends on the individual” camp. And this is where it’s unfortunate that players with remaining indoor eligibility are being discouraged from going out for sand play. Perhaps it is just too tough — and might cause difficulties — to facilitate Player A playing both seasons, but all-but-barring a more injury-prone Player B from doing the same. I think those are good points. I do think that specializing in college lets opposites/OH who don't play in the back focus on hitting and blocking, even though they receive serve/dig in practice, and that generally leads to them being better hitters/blockers than if they'd focused on more skills. They're going to be focusing on hitting/blocking in practice as well as in the games. The back row skills they come in with deteriorate relative to what they would have been if they'd played all around in college. Is it worth the trade-off? In college, yes IMO (most of the time at least). If you're going to play internationally, probably not bc they only allow six subs. The injury risk that you bring up is important and maybe should apply to OHs who play all around too. I agree that it's too bad that some indoor VB coaches discourage playing beach, even though there are legitimate concerns for both the beach and indoor coaches. There are many players who love both and it is good for developing all-around skills. It probably would be hard to tell player A that she should play beach and indoor but tell Player B that she shouldn't, barring exceptional circumstances (e.g, a player is very injury-prone or is an excellent beach and indoor player coming into the program, though the latter doesn't matter to some programs). I vote for erring on the side of letting a player play both but there are definitely downsides to that so I understand why not all coaches do. |
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Post by hwnstunner on Dec 9, 2018 17:18:39 GMT -5
On the other hand, when you have OH/OPP hitters that are capable of playing all the way around, it diversifies your offensive weapons. Now the "D" set comes into play, also the "pike" set, too. Whereas, when you sub in a DS for an OH, and/or OPP, those kinds of sets do not come into play, at all. The setter is limited to who she can set to. There will be some back row attack,options, but I don't see any of these hitters being able to hit the D set effectively, at the outset anyway. Westerberg might. |
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Post by wahinefan on Dec 9, 2018 17:19:47 GMT -5
On the other hand, when you have OH/OPP hitters that are capable of playing all the way around, it diversifies your offensive weapons. Now the "D" set comes into play, also the "pike" set, too. Whereas, when you sub in a DS for an OH, and/or OPP, those kinds of sets do not come into play, at all. The setter is limited to who she can set to. There will be some back row attack,options, but I don't see any of these hitters being able to hit the D set effectively, at the outset anyway. Not even Westerberg, if Robyn decides to play her at OPP? |
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Post by volleyguy on Dec 9, 2018 17:20:20 GMT -5
There will be some back row attack,options, but I don't see any of these hitters being able to hit the D set effectively, at the outset anyway. Westerberg might. Eventually, perhaps. She has the best shot. |
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Post by hwnstunner on Dec 9, 2018 17:25:18 GMT -5
Part of the reason I'd consider keeping Westerberg at opposite (if she shows capability there), is she may be our best terminator. If she were to stay in the middle, we'd lose her for three rotations on the bench. If she plays opposite she could be available to hit the D set and pipe set out of the back row, which means she's always an option, ala Nikky Taylor.
Now, before all the critics here get upset, I am WELL-AWARE this is just assumptions. But as a player and coach at the HS and club, and overall fan of the game for years, I know a hitter when I see one, and Westerberg is someone hawaii may need on the floor for six-rotations. And no, she would not pass.
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Post by wahinefan on Dec 9, 2018 17:34:02 GMT -5
You people bring up some very good points. Even when it comes to playing Beach Volleyball. Hellvig is one player that comes to mind, since there is more video of her playing Beach Volleyball then there is of her playing indoor. Wondering if Robyn will allow her to play Beach Volleyball from the very start, or have her wait until maybe after her Sophomore year. To me, I see more positives then negatives in allowing the indoor players to play Beach Volleyball.
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Post by Timeless on Dec 9, 2018 17:34:28 GMT -5
some little fun
if i had to choose between a top OH or a libero without a doubt i would choose someone like Lanier
OH1:Lanier
OH2:Hellvig
MB1:Westerberg
MB2:Williams
Opp.Iosia
S:Choy
L:Okino
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