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Post by vtnewb on Jun 30, 2020 4:17:29 GMT -5
CSUN: haven’t seen anybody pick them apart yet. I believe everyone else has. They were tight in most matches but had four 3 set losses all to the top 3 teams in the conference. They need to show better against those teams to propel them further up the standings. There is good talent but a lot needs to fall into place in order to see them move into the top half of the league. If one of the setters can run away with the position and get the middles going then this team could make some noise.
They had very little presence out of the middle (<15% of points) last season and relied heavily on the pins (over 80% of the attempts). The pins could be pretty good but McLeod and Nevarez only hit 17% from the left and Waggoner only 22% from the right. Orshoff had a strong first half of the season on the OH but hitting % took a sharp decline the second time through the conference. They had about 650 attempts out of the middle last season and 400 of them graduated. They have some young potential in the middle that need more attention. This isn’t a massive GM2 built team and they need to pass aggressively and get some creativity and tempo out of their setter to get some single looks. That being said, All of their assists from last year have either graduated or transferred similar to Hawaii and Long Beach. Fuller and/or Klungel appear athletic, get off the floor well and have quick feet so should fit the bill for an aggressive offense. Would think a 5-1 would be in order if one of the middles can get going behind the setter. If so there would need to be more than 23 kills on the season from that spot.
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Post by noblesol on Jun 30, 2020 7:06:09 GMT -5
Unless VM has an AI providing context, than yes, it is all just data. One has to be careful not to lose sight of the forest for the trees, to not lose context when examining any one or few of a fire hose of data points. Data is sometimes wrong, sometimes not relevant, or just not of value to the decision point to be made. And, more data is not necessarily better, especially when context isn't applied. Data can only guide, not decide. As I've stated, VM has the game film recorded from the end line and each match is coded, so you can pull up each touch as it corresponds to the statistics. This is what some posters seem reluctant to accept; the data is generated by what happens in the matches. By using both the data and the game film we are afforded far more context than you'll get from the live stream or tv coverage. So that is my context. What extra context do you have, besides what you watch on TV and your opinions? What context can you give me, for example, on JR as a passer throughout her career? The 119 passes she made this year. The 202 for Oregon in 2017, last time she passed a significant number... Film is just captured visual data. A periscope view of a moment in time. In and of itself it is just more data. From the visual and log data are drawn statistics. Context for the data and derived statistic comes from the examination of that data in relation to all other data, and not all of that 'other' data is captured in the visual or log. For example, are all good passes equally important to a good game result, or seen in context to the system they are occurring in and against the competition being played against, and the result they are achieving, and the other options available to the coach/players at the time, are some less than good passes more than good enough? Is there a stat for that in VM, or a captured film moment that can tell you that. Probably not. Not unless VM has an inferential AI onboard that is drawing on a data set larger than what is being captured by periscope film views and simple derived stats. That context has to be provided by the user of the VM data to provide the critical question and hinted at answer(s). Accept this or don't. Actually, I kind of hope you don't, given that your apparent access to VM data suggests you have some connection to a team that is not Hawai'i.
In your second paragraph, the point you are making actually makes my point for me. It highlights the failure of VM to capture all the extra data you wished it could provide, all the key questions it doesn't even attempt to ask of the data that it has, and all the missing context to the data that it will never be able to provide.
Don't get me wrong, I think VM is a good tool. But it has it contextual limits, and one must be careful to appreciate the limits of the provided data and stats it can provide.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2020 9:27:56 GMT -5
For example, are all good passes equally important to a good game result, or seen in context to the system they are occurring in and against the competition being played against, and the result they are achieving, and the other options available to the coach/players at the time, are some less than good passes more than good enough? Is there a stat for that in VM, or a captured film moment that can tell you that. Probably not. See this is why it's funny that you'd try and tell me the limitations of something you have never used. Of course some points are more important than others. VM allows you to filter your data set , or game film, by the situation within the match; points after both teams have reached 20-20 (red zone), set point, match point, first 10 points in a set etc. When preparing scouting reports, you will always watch film from high pressure situations and knowing team/player tendencies in those moments is very useful. Likewise, knowing if a player has a history of missing serves or shanking passes in such situations, is a useful thing to glean from the data. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean she'll shank one against us, does it? But it's context through which we can understand her past performance and prepare for a potential future one. And right there you've demonstrated why your attempt to provide "context" to my application of VM is misguided. You don't understand the system you're attempting to categorize. That is not to say that VM is more than a way of interpreting and analysing what happened in the match. It isn't. But the reason we use it as a teaching tool with the players, for evaluation and for scouting, is that it provides us more context than other than we'd have without it - were we to simply "trust our lying eyes". Which brings me back to my question; where is this context you were trying to provide me coming from? What is your special insight here and, since we're talking about UH, can you apply it to the quality of Rasmussen's passing? I think it's an interesting element to discuss, regarding UH's ball control next year... I have watched the matches (both Oregon and UH) and analyzed the data, but I'm looking forward to your context.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2020 9:39:06 GMT -5
I agree we'll be fine at setter. It's not like we run a super quick or overly complex offense. Worst case scenario we set a lot of high balls to the outside--we have two excellent out of system pin hitters that can still get us by most of the opponents on our schedule this way. I agree serve-receive will be the biggest question mark going in. For once we know we have hitters! The first season in a long time I'm confident in all of the hitters we have coming back! Thoughts on the potential of Helvig playing as a 6-ro Opp this year and passing?
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Post by volleyman808 on Jun 30, 2020 10:23:03 GMT -5
I agree we'll be fine at setter. It's not like we run a super quick or overly complex offense. Worst case scenario we set a lot of high balls to the outside--we have two excellent out of system pin hitters that can still get us by most of the opponents on our schedule this way. I agree serve-receive will be the biggest question mark going in. For once we know we have hitters! The first season in a long time I'm confident in all of the hitters we have coming back! Thoughts on the potential of Helvig playing as a 6-ro Opp this year and passing? Passing was shaky last year but I think she’s ready to play an all around opposite (a la Nikki Taylor)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2020 10:42:30 GMT -5
Thoughts on the potential of Helvig playing as a 6-ro Opp this year and passing? Passing was shaky last year but I think she’s ready to play an all around opposite (a la Nikki Taylor) Was it that shaky though? As a true Fr, who got thrust into the role as OOS terminator when JR went down, she still passed a 48.2% on the year. BVS (and yes, I'm aware of her knee) only passed a 50.8%. If not Helvig, who else passes? BVS, libero and...? As good as she was in 2019, I think Helvig will be special in 2020. Looking at the roster, I'm not sure there's a DS who'll pass significantly better than Hanna would, and her offense from the BR would be great to have. She will struggle at times, but the plan is that she's a 6-ro player in 2021, so I'd try and get her more experience now, I think.
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vballfreak808
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2020 All-VolleyTalk 1st Team, All-VolleyTalk 2nd Team (2023, 2022, 2017, 2016), All-VolleyTalk HM (2021, 2019, 2018), 2017 Fantasy League 1st Runner-up, 2016 Fantasy League Champion
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Post by vballfreak808 on Jun 30, 2020 10:57:03 GMT -5
Passing was shaky last year but I think she’s ready to play an all around opposite (a la Nikki Taylor) Was it that shaky though? As a true Fr, who got thrust into the role as OOS terminator when JR went down, she still passed a 48.2% on the year. BVS (and yes, I'm aware of her knee) only passed a 50.8%. If not Helvig, who else passes? BVS, libero and...? As good as she was in 2019, I think Helvig will be special in 2020. Looking at the roster, I'm not sure there's a DS who'll pass significantly better than Hanna would, and her offense from the BR would be great to have. She will struggle at times, but the plan is that she's a 6-ro player in 2021, so I'd try and get her more experience now, I think. This is something I agree on. For a freshman, she did pretty well playing six rotations starting off the season. Was she the best passer, no? She played pretty solid all-around and putting her at opposite and playing front row only really took the pressure off of her. Having her, Rasmussen, Van Sickle as six rotation players will make the chemistry a lot smoother. Honestly all three of them could play opposite if needed so it’s just a matter of what happens come game day.
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trojansc
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Post by trojansc on Jun 30, 2020 10:59:51 GMT -5
Hawaii better keep Helvig on the floor for 6-ro’s — passing or not. Hawaii can be a big time contender building a system around her the next few years.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2020 11:02:56 GMT -5
Was it that shaky though? As a true Fr, who got thrust into the role as OOS terminator when JR went down, she still passed a 48.2% on the year. BVS (and yes, I'm aware of her knee) only passed a 50.8%. If not Helvig, who else passes? BVS, libero and...? As good as she was in 2019, I think Helvig will be special in 2020. Looking at the roster, I'm not sure there's a DS who'll pass significantly better than Hanna would, and her offense from the BR would be great to have. She will struggle at times, but the plan is that she's a 6-ro player in 2021, so I'd try and get her more experience now, I think. This is something I agree on. For a freshman, she did pretty well playing six rotations starting off the season. Was she the best passer, no? She played pretty solid all-around and putting her at opposite and playing front row only really took the pressure off of her. Having her, Rasmussen, Van Sickle as six rotation players will make the chemistry a lot smoother. Honestly all three of them could play opposite if needed so it’s just a matter of what happens come game day. Agree entirely, and again, if Helvig isn't passing, who is? Gong is unproven. Wagoner passed ~49%, so virtually the same as Helvig, but couldn't terminate, and Rasmussen... Well, I'm waiting for "context" on how to interpret her passing (both before her injury last year and during her time at Oregon).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2020 11:04:20 GMT -5
Hawaii better keep Helvig on the floor for 6-ro’s — passing or not. Hawaii can be a big time contender building a system around her the next few years. Rasmussen 6-ro too? Or DS her?
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trojansc
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Post by trojansc on Jun 30, 2020 11:27:47 GMT -5
Hawaii better keep Helvig on the floor for 6-ro’s — passing or not. Hawaii can be a big time contender building a system around her the next few years. Rasmussen 6-ro too? Or DS her? Hmmm. I don’t know. Injury prone athletes = I’m skeptical.
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Post by noblesol on Jun 30, 2020 12:59:20 GMT -5
Passing was shaky last year but I think she’s ready to play an all around opposite (a la Nikki Taylor) Was it that shaky though? As a true Fr, who got thrust into the role as OOS terminator when JR went down, she still passed a 48.2% on the year. BVS (and yes, I'm aware of her knee) only passed a 50.8%. If not Helvig, who else passes? BVS, libero and...? As good as she was in 2019, I think Helvig will be special in 2020. Looking at the roster, I'm not sure there's a DS who'll pass significantly better than Hanna would, and her offense from the BR would be great to have. She will struggle at times, but the plan is that she's a 6-ro player in 2021, so I'd try and get her more experience now, I think. Now this is the right way to approach the data. I think you're beginning to catch on. You're getting there. Context comes from examination of all the VM data in relation to other data it doesn't provide. Analysis of all those other factors, in relation to what your planning tool can provide, helps guide the right questions of the data you have. The ability to filter data, manipulate it, massage it, is a basic function of any modern planning tool. But still, limited data in means limited data out, and the predictive value is thus constrained. It's up to the user to provide and understand the fuller context, to ask the right questions of the data, and to recognize the limits of its predictive value.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2020 13:13:06 GMT -5
Was it that shaky though? As a true Fr, who got thrust into the role as OOS terminator when JR went down, she still passed a 48.2% on the year. BVS (and yes, I'm aware of her knee) only passed a 50.8%. If not Helvig, who else passes? BVS, libero and...? As good as she was in 2019, I think Helvig will be special in 2020. Looking at the roster, I'm not sure there's a DS who'll pass significantly better than Hanna would, and her offense from the BR would be great to have. She will struggle at times, but the plan is that she's a 6-ro player in 2021, so I'd try and get her more experience now, I think. Now this is the right way to approach the data. I think you're beginning to catch on. You're getting there. Context comes from examination of all the VM data in relation to other data it doesn't provide. Analysis of all those other factors, in relation to what your planning tool can provide, helps guide the right questions of the data you have. The ability to filter data, manipulate it, massage it, is a basic function of any modern planning tool. But still, limited data in means limited data out, and the predictive value is thus constrained. It's up to the user to provide and understand the fuller context, to ask the right questions of the data, and to recognize the limits of its predictive value. You're just like every other homer on VT; you like the data when it supports your bias, when it doesn't you try to argue that "the data is wrong". It's cute, it's not new and it's little wonder given the circle jerk of confirmation bias that is the UH thread. The best bit is, you're now trying to avoid my question regarding JR's passing! Why? Share some of your "context" with us. Illuminate the thread with context on JR's passing, in comparison to the other options available... I'm eager to keep learning from you!
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Post by hwnstunner on Jun 30, 2020 13:30:30 GMT -5
This is not a Hawaii thread or a direct message.
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Anywho, the team I'm really intrigued by is Long Beach State. I cannot wait to see what they can put together this season, but I predict they'll be back in the Top 50 in 2021, and as long as no one leaves, even higher in 2022. I just hope the coaching can match the talent coming in (with all respect to Joy of course)!
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Post by noblesol on Jun 30, 2020 13:49:33 GMT -5
Now this is the right way to approach the data. I think you're beginning to catch on. You're getting there. Context comes from examination of all the VM data in relation to other data it doesn't provide. Analysis of all those other factors, in relation to what your planning tool can provide, helps guide the right questions of the data you have. The ability to filter data, manipulate it, massage it, is a basic function of any modern planning tool. But still, limited data in means limited data out, and the predictive value is thus constrained. It's up to the user to provide and understand the fuller context, to ask the right questions of the data, and to recognize the limits of its predictive value. You're just like every other homer on VT; you like the data when it supports your bias, when it doesn't you try to argue that "the data is wrong". It's cute, it's not new and it's little wonder given the circle jerk of confirmation bias that is the UH thread. The best bit is, you're now trying to avoid my question regarding JR's passing! Why? Share some of your "context" with us. Illuminate the thread with context on JR's passing, in comparison to the other options available... I'm eager to keep learning from you! It's conclusions from the analysis of your data that's been questioned. Largely because your analysis appears over reliant on VM. It didn't acknowledge context. But your question and analysis re Hellvig was definitely a step forward. But, your over reaction to critique, and personal attacks aren't a good look. You can do better!
As for JR, she's a six rotation player. Whatever failings she has as a passer are more then compensated for by her ability to attack from anywhere on the court, the energy and confidence she brings that inspires all around her. When she's on the court, the team is more patient, she expects to the carry the load and asks to, and everyone else's game improves. Ah Mow was managing her minutes and giving her breaks as she could, taking her out of the back row when she could or looked like she needed a break. When she was injured, she was playing front row, she was a bit over aggressive in trying to attack a set drifting over her shoulder that was low and drifting into the net. She landed over the line and stepped on the foot of West Virginia's MB, who had aggressively gone for the block and whose foot also over went over the line. They both wound up injured.
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