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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2020 10:46:38 GMT -5
I don't think it is but the ability to terminate, especially OOS, is the most important consideration at the Olympic level imo. Would you disagree? Yes, that's why we have opposites. The Chinese system is the only system in the world where they essentially use the outside as their opposite. Take Zhu Ting out of the equation for this and you'll see how much more valuable Larson is. Ting is not the passer or defender that Larson or KYK are. Put it this way. Would you choose Ting/KYK or Ting/Larson taking all skills into consideration for the makeup of your team? Who, besides Russia (and that has mixed results), sets their Oppo OOS? Neither USA or China do. Larson isn't that outlet that either KYK or Zhu are. I agree you don't need both but we have neither.
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Post by Reach on Apr 19, 2020 10:48:39 GMT -5
Yes, that's why we have opposites. The Chinese system is the only system in the world where they essentially use the outside as their opposite. Take Zhu Ting out of the equation for this and you'll see how much more valuable Larson is. Ting is not the passer or defender that Larson or KYK are. Put it this way. Would you choose Ting/KYK or Ting/Larson taking all skills into consideration for the makeup of your team? Who, besides Russia (and that has mixed results), sets their Oppo OOS? Neither USA or China do. Larson isn't that outlet that either KYK or Zhu are. I agree you don't need both but we have neither. Serbia, Brazil, Poland, Italy
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Post by donut on Apr 19, 2020 10:50:37 GMT -5
Yes, that's why we have opposites. The Chinese system is the only system in the world where they essentially use the outside as their opposite. Take Zhu Ting out of the equation for this and you'll see how much more valuable Larson is. Ting is not the passer or defender that Larson or KYK are. Put it this way. Would you choose Ting/KYK or Ting/Larson taking all skills into consideration for the makeup of your team? Who, besides Russia (and that has mixed results), sets their Oppo OOS? Neither USA or China do. Larson isn't that outlet that either KYK or Zhu are. I agree you don't need both but we have neither. Most countries use their opposite as their OOS terminator... (see: Italy, Serbia, Netherlands, Germany, Turkey, Brazil). That's literally usually job #1 for an opposite. China doesn't because of Zhu Ting, South Korea doesn't because of KYK, and the USA didn't because 1) Murphy couldn't hit OOS and 2) Karch's offense was strangely designed to send all OOS balls quickly to the left-side (he's started to change this).
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Post by volleyguy on Apr 19, 2020 10:51:59 GMT -5
Because of citizenship restraints, pro teams aren't free to load up with all the best available talent, so that is where Larson's value internationally comes in. Larson's value internationally came from her runs with Dinamo Kazan and Eczacibasi in 2013-2016 (in which she was more than just a "seal all of the edges" player). She was arguably the most sought after club player in the world, and that was reflected in her salary. If you don't think she was ever top 3, that's fine, but attributing her success to pro leagues' citizenship restraints is cheap, especially when those caps work against American players just as much as they may work for them. I think you're misconstruing my argument. The reference to citizenship was about how teams go about constructing a team and deciding which foreign players to bring on-board.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2020 10:54:06 GMT -5
Who, besides Russia (and that has mixed results), sets their Oppo OOS? Neither USA or China do. Larson isn't that outlet that either KYK or Zhu are. I agree you don't need both but we have neither. Serbia, Brazil, Poland, Italy Brazil don't. What do Smarzek, Egonu & Boskovic all have in common?
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Post by Reach on Apr 19, 2020 10:54:16 GMT -5
Who, besides Russia (and that has mixed results), sets their Oppo OOS? Neither USA or China do. Larson isn't that outlet that either KYK or Zhu are. I agree you don't need both but we have neither. Most countries use their opposite as their OOS terminator... (see: Italy, Serbia, Netherlands, Germany, Turkey, Brazil). That's literally usually job #1 for an opposite. China doesn't because of Zhu Ting, South Korea doesn't because of KYK, and the USA didn't because 1) Murphy couldn't hit OOS and 2) Karch's offense was strangely designed to send all OOS balls quickly to the left-side (he's started to change this). The only person who's had success hitting OOS on team USA since the departure of Hooker, Haneef and Tom has been Larson. Nobody else has been successful enough at this skill to be in the conversation. That said, I agree, we did see a major shift in 19... Carlini was setting the opp more than other USA setters in 18 as well before it really took off in 19.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2020 10:55:50 GMT -5
Who, besides Russia (and that has mixed results), sets their Oppo OOS? Neither USA or China do. Larson isn't that outlet that either KYK or Zhu are. I agree you don't need both but we have neither. Most countries use their opposite as their OOS terminator... (see: Italy, Serbia, Netherlands, Germany, Turkey, Brazil). That's literally usually job #1 for an opposite. China doesn't because of Zhu Ting, South Korea doesn't because of KYK, and the USA didn't because 1) Murphy couldn't hit OOS and 2) Karch's offense was strangely designed to send all OOS balls quickly to the left-side (he's started to change this). No. The #1 job of your oppo is an IN system terminator. Come on, these aren't hard ones.
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Post by donut on Apr 19, 2020 10:56:16 GMT -5
Larson's value internationally came from her runs with Dinamo Kazan and Eczacibasi in 2013-2016 (in which she was more than just a "seal all of the edges" player). She was arguably the most sought after club player in the world, and that was reflected in her salary. If you don't think she was ever top 3, that's fine, but attributing her success to pro leagues' citizenship restraints is cheap, especially when those caps work against American players just as much as they may work for them. I think you're misconstruing my argument. The reference to citizenship was about how teams go about constructing a team and deciding which foreign players to bring on-board. How is that argument unique to Larson at all? And teams aren't required to take foreigners, are they? Are they required to pay them 7 figures?
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Post by Reach on Apr 19, 2020 10:56:30 GMT -5
Most countries use their opposite as their OOS terminator... (see: Italy, Serbia, Netherlands, Germany, Turkey, Brazil). That's literally usually job #1 for an opposite. China doesn't because of Zhu Ting, South Korea doesn't because of KYK, and the USA didn't because 1) Murphy couldn't hit OOS and 2) Karch's offense was strangely designed to send all OOS balls quickly to the left-side (he's started to change this). No. The #1 job of your oppo is an IN system terminator. Come on, these aren't hard ones. lol.
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Post by volleyguy on Apr 19, 2020 10:59:06 GMT -5
I think you're misconstruing my argument. The reference to citizenship was about how teams go about constructing a team and deciding which foreign players to bring on-board. How is that argument unique to Larson at all? And teams aren't required to take foreigners, are they? Are they required to pay them 7 figures? I didn't say that it was unique to Larson at all. I talked about Larson in the context of that situation.
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Post by donut on Apr 19, 2020 11:05:16 GMT -5
Most countries use their opposite as their OOS terminator... (see: Italy, Serbia, Netherlands, Germany, Turkey, Brazil). That's literally usually job #1 for an opposite. China doesn't because of Zhu Ting, South Korea doesn't because of KYK, and the USA didn't because 1) Murphy couldn't hit OOS and 2) Karch's offense was strangely designed to send all OOS balls quickly to the left-side (he's started to change this). No. The #1 job of your oppo is an IN system terminator. Come on, these aren't hard ones. You're being really condescending for someone who is frankly just wrong. You just going to ignore the countless examples that have been provided? In-system, the top international teams (both NT and club) are going to distribute the ball more and keep the outsides and middles involved. OOS, teams are going to send a higher percentage of balls to their terminator, who is usually the opposite. China and Korea are exceptions, not the rule.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2020 11:11:51 GMT -5
No. The #1 job of your oppo is an IN system terminator. Come on, these aren't hard ones. You're being really condescending for someone who is frankly just wrong. You just going to ignore the countless examples that have been provided? In-system, the top international teams (both NT and club) are going to distribute the ball more and keep the outsides and middles involved. OOS, teams are going to send a higher percentage of balls to their terminator, who is usually the opposite. China and Korea are exceptions, not the rule. Apologies if you were offended but the notion that a blind set is preferable to the alternative -- if OH and OPP are equally good -- when OOS is just false. Are there teams that set OOS to their Oppo? Sure. But it ENTIRELY depends on who the players are. The teams listed; Italy, Serbia, Poland don't have an OH of the calibre of KYK, Zhu or Larson. But their oppos are pretty good.
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Post by Disc808 on Apr 19, 2020 11:20:40 GMT -5
does it really matter that much lol
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Post by donut on Apr 19, 2020 12:11:20 GMT -5
You're being really condescending for someone who is frankly just wrong. You just going to ignore the countless examples that have been provided? In-system, the top international teams (both NT and club) are going to distribute the ball more and keep the outsides and middles involved. OOS, teams are going to send a higher percentage of balls to their terminator, who is usually the opposite. China and Korea are exceptions, not the rule. Apologies if you were offended but the notion that a blind set is preferable to the alternative -- if OH and OPP are equally good -- when OOS is just false. Are there teams that set OOS to their Oppo? Sure. But it ENTIRELY depends on who the players are. The teams listed; Italy, Serbia, Poland don't have an OH of the calibre of KYK, Zhu or Larson. But their oppos are pretty good. A blind set to the alternative? What? And I wasn't offended -- you were just being condescending. Your opposite is usually your most terminal hitter. It's part of the role. That naturally means they are generally going to carry the burden of bailing teams out of OOS situations (and of course there are limited exceptions). OHs just have other responsibilities on the court. I have no idea what you mean by "if OH and OPP are equally good." If an OH and OPP are equally good, assuming the OH has added responsibilities of passing, I would assume the OPP is still a better terminator. Do you mean if OH and OPP are equally terminal? Since you have issues with the examples provided (or you're ignoring them), why don't you provide a few of: 1) Good teams where the OH and OPP are equally terminal, and by design the OH gets more OOS sets (to your point above)? 2) And even more generally, good teams where by design the teams set OHs more than the OPPs OOS? I challenge you not to use Zhu or KYK (even though KYK was not the go-to OOS hitter at Eczacibasi). I have countless other examples to prove my point, but it's your turn.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2020 12:21:13 GMT -5
Apologies if you were offended but the notion that a blind set is preferable to the alternative -- if OH and OPP are equally good -- when OOS is just false. Are there teams that set OOS to their Oppo? Sure. But it ENTIRELY depends on who the players are. The teams listed; Italy, Serbia, Poland don't have an OH of the calibre of KYK, Zhu or Larson. But their oppos are pretty good. A blind set to the alternative? What? I'm not sure why this confused you. You don't know what a blind set is or you don't know why it causes issues OOS?
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