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Post by werka on Sept 17, 2020 8:08:25 GMT -5
Cue the "it doesn't count against Japan" replies You know who also had insane seasons in Japan? Fawcett and Murphy. Japan is a fine place to play. It certainly "counts." But anyone who has paid any attention to international volleyball over the last ~10 years should understand the issue with saying "she played well in Japan!! She'll play great for USA." I don't recall them winning any significant championships and awards during their tenure there. So I really don't know what your concept of "insane" is.
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Post by donut on Sept 17, 2020 8:20:06 GMT -5
(My bad, I was thinking of Fawcett in South Korea. Comparable, but besides the point.)
You have to win championships or awards to have good seasons? Btw, it's no secret you're a Drews fan. I think most are excited about her development, but given her success has been in the VNL and Japanese League, I think it's perfectly appropriate to have some reservations about her level of play.
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Post by jwvolley on Sept 17, 2020 8:27:07 GMT -5
(My bad, I was thinking of Fawcett in South Korea. Comparable, but besides the point.) You have to win championships or awards to have good seasons? Btw, it's no secret you're a Drews fan. I think most are excited about her development, but given her success has been in the VNL and Japanese League, I think it's perfectly appropriate to have some reservations about her level of play. Totally fair to have reservations. I just find certain comments on here sometimes to be more dismissive than they are "I hope she can perform this well in Olympic-level competition".
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Post by matte on Sept 17, 2020 11:07:30 GMT -5
I actually don't understand the general bias towards the Japanese League. So many legendary players played there that one doesn't even need to mention them. Top players have always been there.
Judging from the (few) recent games I watched, the level in Japan is much higher than in Russia and a bit higher than China.
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Post by Murina on Sept 17, 2020 11:23:15 GMT -5
Why sponsor a team/tournament in Europe? 10% advertising/visibility. 90% tax breaks. I wish some of the big U.S. corporations would do the same. We could use a domestic league in the states. Vote for people who will change the tax code to make it worth doing. As far as I can tell, the US tax code isn't the incentive for companies to donate to colleges - they really are doing it for the advertising during basketball & football. You barely get any companies donating significantly to high school sports. US model: states fund amateur sport through public schools, which are funded by taxes. More taxes = more $ for amateur sport. European model: Amateur sport through clubs which are funded by companies who are incentivized to do so through tax breaks up to a max amount. Edit: even "professional" volleyball in Europe is technically amateur, as far as the law is concerned.
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Post by donut on Sept 17, 2020 11:49:02 GMT -5
I actually don't understand the general bias towards the Japanese League. So many legendary players played there that one doesn't even need to mention them. Top players have always been there. Judging from the (few) recent games I watched, the level in Japan is much higher than in Russia and a bit higher than China. Of course plenty of legendary players have played there -- because it pays well and Japan is a great place to live/train. I would say that the perceived "bias" towards the league stems from two things: 1. Training. Promising young players who are on the border between OH and OPP sign contracts there (likely for $$$) and they almost always are relegated to non-passing roles because the Japanese teams didn't sign them to train them to be a passing OH, but signed them to be terminators. This isn't really the case with Drews, who has always been an OPP, but is relevant to the discussion about Plummer going to Japan. 2. Competition-level and style. The Japanese NT is in a bit of slump right now IMO, but besides that, almost all of the Japanese club teams are built around their one foreign terminator. There is some variation, but for the most part, you're playing against a similar style every week. Those terminators spend their time hitting against a small block and good backrow defense. The latter is a good thing, the former is an issue. The Japanese league was certainly not higher than the Chinese league last year. Just look at the athletes, both on the NT side and the foreigners, and it's a pretty clear divide IMO.
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Post by matte on Sept 17, 2020 17:08:38 GMT -5
1. Training. Promising young players who are on the border between OH and OPP sign contracts there (likely for $$$) and they almost always are relegated to non-passing roles because the Japanese teams didn't sign them to train them to be a passing OH, but signed them to be terminators. This isn't really the case with Drews, who has always been an OPP, but is relevant to the discussion about Plummer going to Japan. I think I read several times that going to Japan was a bad move for young American outsides but I'm not totally sold on this. Hodge started to play pro in Italy and was hidden in serve receive. Klineman played in Italy and Brazil and used to be either covered or hidden with a passing OPP. I mean, even Hooker started her pro career on the left in Italy but then was moved to the rightside permanently and never developed her passing game. That's why I'm not sure that European times are much better than Japanese teams in terms of training/development. I actually don't remember anyone with serious NT potential that didn't develop a good passing game because of Japan. Plummer might be the first one but maybe I'm wrong and forgetting someone.
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Post by c4ndlelight on Sept 17, 2020 18:08:43 GMT -5
1. Training. Promising young players who are on the border between OH and OPP sign contracts there (likely for $$$) and they almost always are relegated to non-passing roles because the Japanese teams didn't sign them to train them to be a passing OH, but signed them to be terminators. This isn't really the case with Drews, who has always been an OPP, but is relevant to the discussion about Plummer going to Japan. I think I read several times that going to Japan was a bad move for young American outsides but I'm not totally sold on this. Hodge started to play pro in Italy and was hidden in serve receive. Klineman played in Italy and Brazil and used to be either covered or hidden with a passing OPP. I mean, even Hooker started her pro career on the left in Italy but then was moved to the rightside permanently and never developed her passing game. That's why I'm not sure that European times are much better than Japanese teams in terms of training/development. I actually don't remember anyone with serious NT potential that didn't develop a good passing game because of Japan. Plummer might be the first one but maybe I'm wrong and forgetting someone. Who are the players who have become better passers in Japan? Mihajlovic and Neriman haven't learned anything there. Klineman did get to pass in Italy and Hooker was moved to the right by Team USA, not clubs.
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Post by werka on Sept 17, 2020 18:22:39 GMT -5
(My bad, I was thinking of Fawcett in South Korea. Comparable, but besides the point.) You have to win championships or awards to have good seasons? Btw, it's no secret you're a Drews fan. I think most are excited about her development, but given her success has been in the VNL and Japanese League, I think it's perfectly appropriate to have some reservations about her level of play. Hence, queue the “but it’s Japan”, indeed.
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Post by matte on Sept 17, 2020 18:23:09 GMT -5
I think I read several times that going to Japan was a bad move for young American outsides but I'm not totally sold on this. Hodge started to play pro in Italy and was hidden in serve receive. Klineman played in Italy and Brazil and used to be either covered or hidden with a passing OPP. I mean, even Hooker started her pro career on the left in Italy but then was moved to the rightside permanently and never developed her passing game. That's why I'm not sure that European times are much better than Japanese teams in terms of training/development. I actually don't remember anyone with serious NT potential that didn't develop a good passing game because of Japan. Plummer might be the first one but maybe I'm wrong and forgetting someone. Who are the players who have become better passers in Japan? Mihajlovic and Neriman haven't learned anything there. Klineman did get to pass in Italy and Hooker was moved to the right by Team USA, not clubs. IIRC Artamonova/Estes claimed that playing in Japan helped to improve her ball control by a lot. Mihajlovic and Oszoy played in Europe for years so I'm not sure it was Japanese teams' faults. They didn't go to Japan when they were young either. And honestly Klineman was shanks after shanks, that's why teams often tried to cover as much as they can (for example when she played in Novara)
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Post by c4ndlelight on Sept 17, 2020 18:25:15 GMT -5
Who are the players who have become better passers in Japan? Mihajlovic and Neriman haven't learned anything there. Klineman did get to pass in Italy and Hooker was moved to the right by Team USA, not clubs. IIRC Artamonova/Estes claimed that playing in Japan helped to improve her ball control by a lot. Mihajlovic and Oszoy played in Europe for years so I'm not sure it was Japanese teams' faults. They didn't go to Japan when they were young either. And honestly Klineman was shanks after shanks, that's why teams often tried to cover as much as they can (for example when she played in Novara) I'm pretty sure Karpol trained Artamonova to pass. And... that was a long time ago. If you're bringing up Artamonova I don't think you have a case that foreign players are becoming better passers in Japan. And yes, honestly Klineman was a total shankasaurus. They still let her pass (unlike Team USA).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2020 18:27:42 GMT -5
Fenerbahce-Ecza. will be on TRT Spor 2 tomorrow at 6AM CT. Links are in the thread for both VPN and non-VPN sites.
If you can't find them I can re-link.
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Post by newbeach on Sept 17, 2020 19:00:33 GMT -5
As fascinating as all this talk on Japan, Lowe, Fawcette, Murphy, etc. is, doesn’t it belong in another thread? I keep clicking on the Turkish League thread and then after reading, I think I’m in the wrong place. 😂
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Post by n00b on Sept 17, 2020 19:41:41 GMT -5
Fenerbahce-Ecza. will be on TRT Spor 2 tomorrow at 6AM CT. Links are in the thread for both VPN and non-VPN sites. If you can't find them I can re-link. Ugh. Why are they playing this match on a Friday afternoon? I really don't want to get up that early.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2020 19:48:00 GMT -5
Fenerbahce-Ecza. will be on TRT Spor 2 tomorrow at 6AM CT. Links are in the thread for both VPN and non-VPN sites. If you can't find them I can re-link. Ugh. Why are they playing this match on a Friday afternoon? I really don't want to get up that early. Not sure. But I'm not a fan lol. But on the bright side, at least its not 4am!
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