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Post by bbg95 on Sept 24, 2020 16:50:04 GMT -5
Yeah, you make a fair point about the quality of the competition. It was definitely better on Game Changers than in SJDS. I think Natalie's game was definitely superior to Sarah's in a vacuum, but when the level of competition is factored in, I could be persuaded that Sarah's was better. This is also one of the reasons why I view Tony's game in Winners at War as the best ever--for him to dominate against the best competition ever was incredible. It was Sarah's second time though. I think that cancels out or equals the fact that the level of competition was supposedly higher. IMO, Game Changers had the weakest all-returnees cast ever. Given the cast, it was also misnamed. I'm not saying you're wrong. My initial impression was that Natalie played a better game, but I thought bluepenquin made a good point about the quality of the competition. Sarah certainly played much worse her first time out (her performance at the merge in Cagayan was comically bad).
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Post by bbg95 on Oct 4, 2020 22:51:52 GMT -5
I've been watching Samoa and just got to the merge. I have to say that I think this season is pretty good. There really aren't many players that I dislike (one exception was Ben, but he was voted out early). Erik became pretty arrogant around the merge, but that made his blindside pretty satisfying. I think the main strength of this season is that Russell is just an excellent narrator (from what I can gather online, this may be a controversial opinion, but I can't help but find the guy to be entertaining in his confessionals). This season is as centered around one player as any I can remember, but that isn't really a bad thing. I really don't think Russell has been that bad socially to this point, so it will be interesting to see how he ends up losing. On a related note, I think that watching a season that tells the story of how someone lost can be just as interesting as a season that told the story of how someone won.
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Oct 5, 2020 6:41:33 GMT -5
I've been watching Samoa and just got to the merge. I have to say that I think this season is pretty good. There really aren't many players that I dislike (one exception was Ben, but he was voted out early). Erik became pretty arrogant around the merge, but that made his blindside pretty satisfying. I think the main strength of this season is that Russell is just an excellent narrator (from what I can gather online, this may be a controversial opinion, but I can't help but find the guy to be entertaining in his confessionals). This season is as centered around one player as any I can remember, but that isn't really a bad thing. I really don't think Russell has been that bad socially to this point, so it will be interesting to see how he ends up losing. On a related note, I think that watching a season that tells the story of how someone lost can be just as interesting as a season that told the story of how someone won. At the time - Russell certainly upset how the game was played. He was very much hated for the way he played - but looking back it really wasn't nearly as bad as people thought at the time. He did say some 'mean' things in confessions about people, personal things. But this has been done by many other before. He also was extremely arrogant - like many before. I thought Russell should have won this season at the time and then watching again years later. I also wonder if Boston Rob still wins 3 seasons later at Redemption Island if it had been someone else other than Russell returning with Boston Rob. Russell was able to get by the following season (all-stars) and make it to the end because no one knew who he was going in. But by Season 22 - no one was going to trust him - and he was going to get voted off immediately regardless - and by comparison, Boston Rob was viewed like a Saint. Which brings me to; I finished Guatemala last week - that also had 2 returning players with 16 new players. But this time - it was highly popular players. Even with this, most of the players in the game didn't want those two returning players to win - and it probably cost Stephanie in the end. Watching these a 2nd time and knowing who won, I get the - how in the heck did this person actually end up winning. I am not convinced that Danni played a good game - both sides came into the merge at 5-5 - and Danni and the rest of her side was too easy in giving up that advantage. She essentially lasts because she was the least threat from her tribe and the last one to survive. The only thing I can think she may have played a big part in her winning, was planting the seed that Judd was gunning for Stephenie and Rafe at just the right time - which got her to the end. What I found odd about the season - they start with two tribes of 9. Then, after 4 or 5 episodes, the switch tribes. It was the 2nd tribe that held the alliances until the end and not the original tribe. Usually it is the original tribe that will have the strongest alliance. Very different than normal. I found Stephenie to be pretty annoying the 2nd time around (at the time, she was very popular). At the time, I thought Stephenie should have won. Hard to argue that she wasn't the better player during the game. I am currently in Marquesas - about 3 episodes in. Boston Rob is one of my favorite players of all-time (not an opinion shared by most here). I want to see how he plays in his first season - as I obviously didn't know him when that first aired and he didn't even make the merge. Looks like this is going to be another season where the tribe that doesn't have the numbers at the merge will end up with the winner.
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Post by donut on Oct 5, 2020 8:45:03 GMT -5
I've been watching Samoa and just got to the merge. I have to say that I think this season is pretty good. There really aren't many players that I dislike (one exception was Ben, but he was voted out early). Erik became pretty arrogant around the merge, but that made his blindside pretty satisfying. I think the main strength of this season is that Russell is just an excellent narrator (from what I can gather online, this may be a controversial opinion, but I can't help but find the guy to be entertaining in his confessionals). This season is as centered around one player as any I can remember, but that isn't really a bad thing. I really don't think Russell has been that bad socially to this point, so it will be interesting to see how he ends up losing. On a related note, I think that watching a season that tells the story of how someone lost can be just as interesting as a season that told the story of how someone won. I finished Guatemala last week - that also had 2 returning players with 16 new players. But this time - it was highly popular players. Even with this, most of the players in the game didn't want those two returning players to win - and it probably cost Stephanie in the end. Watching these a 2nd time and knowing who won, I get the - how in the heck did this person actually end up winning. I am not convinced that Danni played a good game - both sides came into the merge at 5-5 - and Danni and the rest of her side was too easy in giving up that advantage. She essentially lasts because she was the least threat from her tribe and the last one to survive. The only thing I can think she may have played a big part in her winning, was planting the seed that Judd was gunning for Stephenie and Rafe at just the right time - which got her to the end. What I found odd about the season - they start with two tribes of 9. Then, after 4 or 5 episodes, the switch tribes. It was the 2nd tribe that held the alliances until the end and not the original tribe. Usually it is the original tribe that will have the strongest alliance. Very different than normal. I found Stephenie to be pretty annoying the 2nd time around (at the time, she was very popular). At the time, I thought Stephenie should have won. Hard to argue that she wasn't the better player during the game. Yaxha (Danni's tribe) went into the merge down 4-6, not 5-5. I thought Danni played a pretty masterful game from the bottom. She got in with Rafe and Lydia, won clutch immunities, convinced Rafe to convince Stephanie to take out Judd (an AWFUL move on Stephanie's part), convinced Rafe to take her over Lydia to final 3, and won final immunity. She was really able to play an UTR, stealthy game, and Stephanie ended up taking the fall for all of the blindsides, whereas Danni had planted a lot of those seeds. And regardless of the pecking order, I think making it to the Final 2 after a Pagonging is insanely impressive.
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Oct 5, 2020 9:15:45 GMT -5
I finished Guatemala last week - that also had 2 returning players with 16 new players. But this time - it was highly popular players. Even with this, most of the players in the game didn't want those two returning players to win - and it probably cost Stephanie in the end. Watching these a 2nd time and knowing who won, I get the - how in the heck did this person actually end up winning. I am not convinced that Danni played a good game - both sides came into the merge at 5-5 - and Danni and the rest of her side was too easy in giving up that advantage. She essentially lasts because she was the least threat from her tribe and the last one to survive. The only thing I can think she may have played a big part in her winning, was planting the seed that Judd was gunning for Stephenie and Rafe at just the right time - which got her to the end. What I found odd about the season - they start with two tribes of 9. Then, after 4 or 5 episodes, the switch tribes. It was the 2nd tribe that held the alliances until the end and not the original tribe. Usually it is the original tribe that will have the strongest alliance. Very different than normal. I found Stephenie to be pretty annoying the 2nd time around (at the time, she was very popular). At the time, I thought Stephenie should have won. Hard to argue that she wasn't the better player during the game. Yaxha (Danni's tribe) went into the merge down 4-6, not 5-5. I thought Danni played a pretty masterful game from the bottom. She got in with Rafe and Lydia, won clutch immunities, convinced Rafe to convince Stephanie to take out Judd (an AWFUL move on Stephanie's part), convinced Rafe to take her over Lydia to final 3, and won final immunity. She was really able to play an UTR, stealthy game, and Stephanie ended up taking the fall for all of the blindsides, whereas Danni had planted a lot of those seeds. And regardless of the pecking order, I think making it to the Final 2 after a Pagonging is insanely impressive. Judd was in Danni's tribe and then switched on the 1st vote. I am pretty sure that it was 5-5. But then Danni may not have been able to stop Judd from switching. I agree that the move against Judd by convincing Rafe/Stephanie was huge. And then winning immunities at the end. OTH, she survives Brandon, Bobby Jon, and Gary getting voted out before her which was fortunate and how the game was played.
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Post by donut on Oct 5, 2020 9:33:02 GMT -5
Yaxha (Danni's tribe) went into the merge down 4-6, not 5-5. I thought Danni played a pretty masterful game from the bottom. She got in with Rafe and Lydia, won clutch immunities, convinced Rafe to convince Stephanie to take out Judd (an AWFUL move on Stephanie's part), convinced Rafe to take her over Lydia to final 3, and won final immunity. She was really able to play an UTR, stealthy game, and Stephanie ended up taking the fall for all of the blindsides, whereas Danni had planted a lot of those seeds. And regardless of the pecking order, I think making it to the Final 2 after a Pagonging is insanely impressive. Judd was in Danni's tribe and then switched on the 1st vote. I am pretty sure that it was 5-5. But then Danni may not have been able to stop Judd from switching. I agree that the move against Judd by convincing Rafe/Stephanie was huge. And then winning immunities at the end. OTH, she survives Brandon, Bobby Jon, and Gary getting voted out before her which was fortunate and how the game was played. Which tribe are you talking about? The original tribe or switched tribe? Regardless, it was 6-4 at the merge. Link. Going into the merge, Judd was on Nakum and was aligned with Stephanie and Jamie. I'm not faulting Danni for being lowest on the pecking order -- that very well could have been her social game at work. I find Danni's game, playing from the bottom and pulling the strings from behind the scenes through her social skills, to be more impressive than someone who was in the majority the entire merge, and fumbled and tripped across the finish line. I'm saying that as someone who LOVES Stephanie and I would love to see her back. But I think you tend to underestimate UTR games
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2020 9:43:35 GMT -5
I finished Guatemala last week - that also had 2 returning players with 16 new players. But this time - it was highly popular players. Even with this, most of the players in the game didn't want those two returning players to win - and it probably cost Stephanie in the end. Watching these a 2nd time and knowing who won, I get the - how in the heck did this person actually end up winning. I am not convinced that Danni played a good game - both sides came into the merge at 5-5 - and Danni and the rest of her side was too easy in giving up that advantage. She essentially lasts because she was the least threat from her tribe and the last one to survive. The only thing I can think she may have played a big part in her winning, was planting the seed that Judd was gunning for Stephenie and Rafe at just the right time - which got her to the end. What I found odd about the season - they start with two tribes of 9. Then, after 4 or 5 episodes, the switch tribes. It was the 2nd tribe that held the alliances until the end and not the original tribe. Usually it is the original tribe that will have the strongest alliance. Very different than normal. I found Stephenie to be pretty annoying the 2nd time around (at the time, she was very popular). At the time, I thought Stephenie should have won. Hard to argue that she wasn't the better player during the game. Yaxha (Danni's tribe) went into the merge down 4-6, not 5-5. I thought Danni played a pretty masterful game from the bottom. She got in with Rafe and Lydia, won clutch immunities, convinced Rafe to convince Stephanie to take out Judd (an AWFUL move on Stephanie's part), convinced Rafe to take her over Lydia to final 3, and won final immunity. She was really able to play an UTR, stealthy game, and Stephanie ended up taking the fall for all of the blindsides, whereas Danni had planted a lot of those seeds. And regardless of the pecking order, I think making it to the Final 2 after a Pagonging is insanely impressive. +1. She even hid her game strategies from the producers. She said post game I believe she was picking up on clues from them about what the other tribe members were doing based on their questions/what the producers wanted her to react to. She didn't give them anything to work with. Really a smart strategy, can't get more UTR lol
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Oct 5, 2020 10:19:36 GMT -5
Judd was in Danni's tribe and then switched on the 1st vote. I am pretty sure that it was 5-5. But then Danni may not have been able to stop Judd from switching. I agree that the move against Judd by convincing Rafe/Stephanie was huge. And then winning immunities at the end. OTH, she survives Brandon, Bobby Jon, and Gary getting voted out before her which was fortunate and how the game was played. Which tribe are you talking about? The original tribe or switched tribe? Regardless, it was 6-4 at the merge. Link. Going into the merge, Judd was on Nakum and was aligned with Stephanie and Jamie. I'm not faulting Danni for being lowest on the pecking order -- that very well could have been her social game at work. I find Danni's game, playing from the bottom and pulling the strings from behind the scenes through her social skills, to be more impressive than someone who was in the majority the entire merge, and fumbled and tripped across the finish line. I'm saying that as someone who LOVES Stephanie and I would love to see her back. But I think you tend to underestimate UTR games Your right - I am misrembering/confused. It was earlier that I am thinking. Dani's tribe had the advantage at the 1st tribe switch, then proceeded to vote out the next 3 from their original tribe. Danni was only responsible for one of these. Her 'side' had the 4-3 advantage, but Danni and Bobby Jon switched sides and voted one of their original tribe. I thought this was a critical error - but then this season the players ultimately aligned with the 2nd tribe and not the first. I thought Stephenie was sort of annoying watching again. I think Danni did do some stuff UTR. But here is one of my general issues - the people that vote out the jury, end up not getting their votes. Especially early on - as they would have had to break an alliance and this betrayal or lie often cost them from winning and the person that didn't make the decisions to get out people is left with the win.
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Post by donut on Oct 5, 2020 10:41:09 GMT -5
Which tribe are you talking about? The original tribe or switched tribe? Regardless, it was 6-4 at the merge. Link. Going into the merge, Judd was on Nakum and was aligned with Stephanie and Jamie. I'm not faulting Danni for being lowest on the pecking order -- that very well could have been her social game at work. I find Danni's game, playing from the bottom and pulling the strings from behind the scenes through her social skills, to be more impressive than someone who was in the majority the entire merge, and fumbled and tripped across the finish line. I'm saying that as someone who LOVES Stephanie and I would love to see her back. But I think you tend to underestimate UTR games But here is one of my general issues - the people that vote out the jury, end up not getting their votes. That's not an issue - that's literally the central crux of Survivor! The people you put on the jury end up deciding who wins the $1 million. There have been plenty of juries who have voted for the player who put most of them there. How you manage that dynamic is arguably one of the most important parts of the game. What you don't do is promise Judd and his wife that you're taking him to the final 2, and then vote him out next. What you manage better is voting out Cindy, who just took you on reward. What you don't do is completely deny that you backstabbed and blindsided your alliance at FTC. What you don't do is let the surviving member from a Pangonging get in tight with Rafe, your righthand man. If Rafe hadn't released Danni from her promise, Stephanie probably wouldn't have even been in the Final 2!
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Post by bbg95 on Oct 5, 2020 11:59:01 GMT -5
I finished Guatemala last week - that also had 2 returning players with 16 new players. But this time - it was highly popular players. Even with this, most of the players in the game didn't want those two returning players to win - and it probably cost Stephanie in the end. Watching these a 2nd time and knowing who won, I get the - how in the heck did this person actually end up winning. I am not convinced that Danni played a good game - both sides came into the merge at 5-5 - and Danni and the rest of her side was too easy in giving up that advantage. She essentially lasts because she was the least threat from her tribe and the last one to survive. The only thing I can think she may have played a big part in her winning, was planting the seed that Judd was gunning for Stephenie and Rafe at just the right time - which got her to the end. What I found odd about the season - they start with two tribes of 9. Then, after 4 or 5 episodes, the switch tribes. It was the 2nd tribe that held the alliances until the end and not the original tribe. Usually it is the original tribe that will have the strongest alliance. Very different than normal. I found Stephenie to be pretty annoying the 2nd time around (at the time, she was very popular). At the time, I thought Stephenie should have won. Hard to argue that she wasn't the better player during the game. Yaxha (Danni's tribe) went into the merge down 4-6, not 5-5. I thought Danni played a pretty masterful game from the bottom. She got in with Rafe and Lydia, won clutch immunities, convinced Rafe to convince Stephanie to take out Judd (an AWFUL move on Stephanie's part), convinced Rafe to take her over Lydia to final 3, and won final immunity. She was really able to play an UTR, stealthy game, and Stephanie ended up taking the fall for all of the blindsides, whereas Danni had planted a lot of those seeds. And regardless of the pecking order, I think making it to the Final 2 after a Pagonging is insanely impressive. Agreed. I like under-the-radar winners. I hold Michelle's and Sandra's wins in higher regard than many other people do, for example. There are so many disadvantages to playing from the bottom that I don't mind that one advantage is that jury management is generally easier. As for Danni specifically, I also liked that her win wasn't overly reliant on a bunch of idols and advantages, so it was mostly social game. There was only one (very underpowered) idol that season and one advantage for a challenge. Danni did actually use that advantage (which she purchased in the auction) to win a key immunity challenge, but I have to give her credit for that too, as everyone had an equal opportunity to buy the advantage, whereas finding idols is a bit more luck-dependent. I also agree that keeping the target off of you is a very valuable and somewhat underrated skill (see also: Sandra's wins in both seasons, especially HvV).
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Post by bbg95 on Oct 5, 2020 12:23:32 GMT -5
But here is one of my general issues - the people that vote out the jury, end up not getting their votes. That's not an issue - that's literally the central crux of Survivor! The people you put on the jury end up deciding who wins the $1 million. There have been plenty of juries who have voted for the player who put most of them there. How you manage that dynamic is arguably one of the most important parts of the game. What you don't do is promise Judd and his wife that you're taking him to the final 2, and then vote him out next. What you manage better is voting out Cindy, who just took you on reward. What you don't do is completely deny that you backstabbed and blindsided your alliance at FTC. What you don't do is let the surviving member from a Pangonging get in tight with Rafe, your righthand man. If Rafe hadn't released Danni from her promise, Stephanie probably wouldn't have even been in the Final 2! Yeah, agree on this as well. Another way to manage the jury is to take people even less likable/respected than you to the end so the jury doesn't have much choice, even if they're upset. This is why Steph voting out Judd and Jaime was so bad for her game. She needed to be like Tyson in BvW who took Monica and Gervase instead of Hayden or Ciera. Or Adam taking Hannah and Ken in Millennials v. Gen X instead of taking David. Or Jeremy taking Spencer and Tasha in Cambodia instead of taking Keith or Wentworth or Kimmi. Etc. Unless you're like JT in Tocantins or Tony in WaW (i.e. it doesn't actually matter who you're sitting next to at the end because your game is so good that you'll beat anyone you're up against), keep the goats in the game.
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Oct 5, 2020 13:07:09 GMT -5
It wasn't like Steph played a 'great' game and deserved to win. It was Season 11 - and people were playing the game different.
I think jury management is important - the problem for me - too often in the early seasons the players getting voted off held some deep seeded grudge for being voted off. They hold the person that knocks them out accountable, even though in many situations that person was also planning to take out their partner. Take Lex in Season 8 - who was deeply offended by what Boston Rob did, when he was talking about taking out other people he 'lied' to. I don't like it when the jury thinks of this as a social experiment instead of just a game of strategy and deceit.
I forgot about Danni buying the advantage - which absolutely kept her in the game. Good play by her - really bad play by Steph/Rafe who had more money than Danni and could have taken the advantage. Steph made a lot of mistakes for sure.
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Post by donut on Oct 5, 2020 13:42:40 GMT -5
I don't like it when the jury thinks of this as a social experiment instead of just a game of strategy and deceit. See, I appreciate more than one type of game. Under your view, we would have 40 winners who are all the same. That's just boring and predictable, and frankly, I think strays from the spirit of Survivor.
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Post by bbg95 on Oct 5, 2020 17:30:14 GMT -5
I don't like it when the jury thinks of this as a social experiment instead of just a game of strategy and deceit. See, I appreciate more than one type of game. Under your view, we would have 40 winners who are all the same. That's just boring and predictable, and frankly, I think strays from the spirit of Survivor. Yeah, I think that the strength of Survivor is that every game is unique, and there's no objectively correct way to play. There are a lot of things that will help your chances and a lot of things that can sink you, but it ultimately does come down to the people you're out there with and how you navigate them.
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Post by bbg95 on Oct 5, 2020 17:43:43 GMT -5
I just got to the Kelly blindside, which seems like the original "Wentworth...will not count," with Russell negating a whopping seven votes with his second idol that he found without a clue (which I think was unprecedented at this point). At first, I thought Galu screwed up by not splitting the vote, even though multiple members of the tribe brought it up as an option. But I realized that since they voted out Erik, they only had seven votes, while Foa Foa had four. So in order to split the votes, they actually have to guess right about where Russell would play the idol. And they would also leave themselves open to Shambo (who they didn't trust) just telling Foa Foa who the votes are on. What I think the other six should have done is told Shambo they were voting for Russell but actually vote for Jaison or Mick. Those were the two people that Russell was very unlikely to play the idol on, and they could deal with Russell in the next few votes.
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