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Post by bbg95 on Sept 14, 2021 21:43:20 GMT -5
I think the bottle twist is definitely a bit unfair. Just on my list of grievances with Cook Islands, I'm not sure it's in the top three. I think it's more along the lines of Silas getting screwed by the first ever swap in Africa, which most people don't bring up because people didn't like Silas. Now that I think of it, the mutiny itself was probably more unfair than the bottle twist was, even if the result of it forced the remaining Aitus together like they never had been, and they eventually won the battle. I believe that if Aitu had lost again prior to the merge and without the mutiny, Ozzy was the one that Yul wanted to vote out next. As for the Outcasts, that interview with Jeff is interesting. Burton said when he was voted out, he asked for food, and they told him no. He also said he lost more weight as a member of the Outcasts than he did in the time before he got voted out because the rationing was so strict. So for both stories to match up, the decision must have been made sometime after Nicole was voted out but sometime before Burton was voted out. That means the only people who could have potentially benefited were Nicole, Skinny Ryan and Lil. So yes, it's a little unfair, but I don't think those three were the reason the Outcasts won. You make fair points about the fabric (though Burton claims the way Lil used it was actually a hindrance) and the extra person, but I don't think those were decisive factors. The main thing is that Burton basically turned into the Michael Jordan of Survivor during that challenge and just was not going to lose. I totally agree with you that if I had been a contestant that was victimized by one of those twists, I would have been furious as well. Andrew Savage probably got onto the Second Chance ballot in large part because of his protestations that he was screwed by the Outcasts coming back into the game. But since these twists happened earlier, it's not as clear that they potentially caused the wrong person to win the way the late-game twists did. I do agree that the twists should be evaluated based on both the results and the potential results, which is why I don't need to see the Outcast twist ever again. Certainly, if they were to ever do it again, they absolutely should let the players know about it at the start of the game so they can account for it. Finally, for Cagayan, yes, I believe that the final two was a result of Lindsay quitting immediately after Cliff got voted out and disrupting the production schedule because there were only 18 players on that season rather than 20 in some other seasons, which allows for some more flexibility. But production had faced this situation before (and much later in the game) when Erik was medevaced immediately after Brenda got voted out in Caramoan, and they opted for the less disruptive advantage in the final immunity challenge. Imagine if that if they had gone with a surprise final two because Erik got medevaced, and Cochran lost the extra immunity challenge and got voted out. Then, we're stuck with either Dawn or Sherri winning. I shudder at the thought. I would still say that the bottle twist is significantly worse than the first swap ever that screwed Silas. Specifically in the case of Silas, I don't think the season changes that much if there's no swap. The division between the older members of Samburu and the younger members of Samburu (often called the Mallrats) ran really, really deep. Silas definitely played a role in that division but he wasn't the only one - at least from what the edit showed, Carl bragged about his wealth, Linda seemed weird and like she was trying too hard, Frank was really hard-nosed, Lindsey was annoying, etc. There are three scenarios that could play out if there was no swap:
1) Samburu wins both immunity challenges (with 12 players left and with 11 players left): Boran probably votes out Clarence and then either Kelly Goldsmith or Kim Johnson. Samburu is ahead 6-4 at the merge...but Teresa and Frank know they'll never make it to the end with the Mallrats and flip to vote with Boran. Silas goes as soon as he doesn't have immunity post-merge. 2) The immunity challenges at 12 left and 11 left are split 1-1 between Samburu and Boran: Boran probably votes out Clarence, Samburu probably votes out Frank. Teresa still flips, Silas still goes as soon as he doesn't have immunity post-merge. 3) Boran wins both immunity challenges at 12 left and 11 left: Frank and Teresa are voted out. Clarence could flip to the Samburus, but Clarence, Silas, and Lindsey all lose a 5-5 tie vote at the merge due to past votes - none of Ethan/Kim J/Lex/Tom/Kelly would have any votes against them in this scenario.
To be fair, as the season actually played out, the original Boran members jeopardized their chances of winning by voting Kelly out too early (I've heard some people describe Lex's search for whoever voted for him at the Final 10 tribal council as a "witch hunt", which...has at least some truth to it given that Kelly was innocent). So I guess one could argue that, if Silas won immunity at the first few individual immunity challenges after the merge, Boran might have screwed up just as they actually did. But if the tribes were evenly divided at the merge, I don't think Lex would be surprised if the Mallrats voted for him (and he would win the tie if the votes were tied as I described above), and so the witch hunt probably never happens. Apart from Silas specifically, the swap twist in general just feels way more reasonable than the bottle twist because any player who is good at getting people to like them can potentially navigate their way through a swap, no matter what happens. There have of course been plenty of examples of winners who did well after a swap (in the seasons after Africa) - Vecepia didn't get voted out even though she was in the minority on Rotu after the Marquesas swap; Parvati picked up Alexis and Natalie as allies (to later use to get Ozzy out, and ultimately vote for her to win) in Micronesia after the swap; Adam in Millennials vs. Gen. X formed an alliance with Jessica and Ken that ultimately resulted in him sitting next to Ken who he could easily beat in the Final Tribal Council (albeit not without mistakes involving other players along the way, but that doesn't take away from Jessica and Ken being good alliance partners for him)...etc.
As for Burton and the Outcasts twist - I watched the part of the video you linked about that. Burton says he wasn't given extra food, but I didn't hear him specifically mention where the Outcasts were sleeping. So...I think the Outcasts were probably allowed to sleep in the hotel but just didn't get extra food (because either the hotel didn't serve food or the producers made sure that the hotel ignored all of the Outcasts' requests). Sleeping in a real bed is better than what the contestants in the game had - and all of the Outcasts except Trish (based on what she said, because she was voted out the latest) would have gotten multiple nights to sleep in the hotel. With respect to the purple material Lil used to tie the pole together, Burton said that Lil tied it badly, but somehow it was still holding the pole together near where Burton's hands were when Burton was using it to get the final key...so somehow it got fixed during the challenge (could have been Nicole, Ryan, Trish, or Michelle who fixed it, who knows). Given its width, and the fact that it didn't get shredded as it was being used during the challenge (so it was not of poor quality)...it was an advantage. Also, not everything that was said in that video was accurate. Jonny Fairplay said that Lil was voted back into the game because Michelle and Nicole did not want to go on the vacation for pre-jury members with her on it - but Michelle did not vote for Lil to get back into the game. Michelle voted for Nicole and Burton; Lil's 3 votes came from Nicole, Ryan (which makes sense as they were allies on Morgan), and Trish (which makes sense because they were comparatively close in life experience and Lil similarly voted for Trish). I suppose Michelle probably told Jonny Fairplay post-game that she was glad to be away from Lil, but she did not vote to set up the pre-jury trip in that way. With all that said, I will agree that once the producers decided to do the Outcast twist, Burton was in all probability going to win that challenge for the Outcasts regardless.
Thinking about Caramoan versus Cagayan and Final 2 versus Final 3 - I know some fans believed at the time it aired (and probably still do) that the producers' favorite in Caramoan was Cochran. The challenge to give the advantage in the final immunity challenge...mostly makes sense as something the producers would perceive as being likely for Cochran to win, given that it was balance/mental based, and not pure strength or speed, which likely would have favored Eddie. So there may be an argument that Ben in HHH was not the first time the producers maneuvered late game to try to get a specific winner. With that in mind, do you think that the producers wanted Woo to win Cagayan and made it a final 2 for that reason? (I know the producers got a lot of mileage out of "Chaos Kass" - but I thought it was very obvious that Kass was not going to win Cagayan whether it was Final 2 or Final 3 - maybe I'm not right about that.)
I'm very pro-swap. In fact, I think that the swap is probably the single best change that Survivor has ever made, with the possible exception of the hidden immunity idol. But since it was the first swap ever, there was no way to predict it, especially because the way it was set up gave no indication whatsoever that something like that was coming. Obviously, after Africa, everyone should anticipate a swap may be coming at some point. And Silas didn't just end up in the minority like Vecepia did--he was on an island since Frank and T-Bird were there, and his new tribe even threw a challenge just to get rid of him. You're almost certainly right that Silas wouldn't have won the game anyway, but I still think he's arguably the most swap-screwed player not named Aaron in China. I definitely don't think the producers wanted Woo to win, as Tony was TV gold. In fact, I think this near miss is why we've never seen a surprise two ever again (e.g. in Kaoh Rong after Joe was medevaced at final five) and probably never will. I'm not really sure why the producers opted for a surprise final two instead of one of the other mechanisms to deal with a quit or medevac disrupting the production schedule, but they got away with one. And thinking more about Caramoan, I think if Dawn or Sherri won because of a surprise final two, I would drop Caramoan behind Redemption Island as DFL in my season rankings.
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Post by Hawk Attack on Sept 15, 2021 14:30:34 GMT -5
To be fair, as the season actually played out, the original Boran members jeopardized their chances of winning by voting Kelly out too early (I've heard some people describe Lex's search for whoever voted for him at the Final 10 tribal council as a "witch hunt", which...has at least some truth to it given that Kelly was innocent). This is honestly what soured the entire season for me. Watching Lex essentially get away with that was infuriating and really made me dislike him for the rest of his run on the series. I was very satisfied when he was betrayed by Boston Rob on All-Stars. A fitting end for Lex, in my opinion.
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Post by bbg95 on Sept 15, 2021 14:56:56 GMT -5
To be fair, as the season actually played out, the original Boran members jeopardized their chances of winning by voting Kelly out too early (I've heard some people describe Lex's search for whoever voted for him at the Final 10 tribal council as a "witch hunt", which...has at least some truth to it given that Kelly was innocent). This is honestly what soured the entire season for me. Watching Lex essentially get away with that was infuriating and really made me dislike him for the rest of his run on the series. I was very satisfied when he was betrayed by Boston Rob on All-Stars. A fitting end for Lex, in my opinion. It was also dumb that Lex voted out Clarence at the merge because he was afraid Clarence would win every single challenge. And then Lex did the same thing in All Stars when he voted out all the stronger guys on his tribe and predictably went into the merge on the wrong side of the numbers. Lex's witch hunt toward Kelly was bad, and so was Brandon flipping over to Lex's side and costing Kim P (who he claimed was the only person he cared about) a likely win. I think Africa is a pretty good season anyway, but if Lex had been blindsided at final 9, and Kim P (or T-Bird or Kelly) won the game, I think I'd like it more.
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Post by Hawk Attack on Sept 15, 2021 15:55:54 GMT -5
This is honestly what soured the entire season for me. Watching Lex essentially get away with that was infuriating and really made me dislike him for the rest of his run on the series. I was very satisfied when he was betrayed by Boston Rob on All-Stars. A fitting end for Lex, in my opinion. It was also dumb that Lex voted out Clarence at the merge because he was afraid Clarence would win every single challenge. And then Lex did the same thing in All Stars when he voted out all the stronger guys on his tribe and predictably went into the merge on the wrong side of the numbers. Lex's witch hunt toward Kelly was bad, and so was Brandon flipping over to Lex's side and costing Kim P (who he claimed was the only person he cared about) a likely win. I think Africa is a pretty good season anyway, but if Lex had been blindsided at final 9, and Kim P (or T-Bird or Kelly) won the game, I think I'd like it more. Kim P., T-Bird, & Kelly all kind of got raw deals dealing with the idiot men around them. I was bummed when T-Bird didn't make the second chance season. It does seem like there's some hope for a Kelly G. return on another B v W or Second Chance season (if they're still doing themes...), I have no idea what happened to Kim Powers.
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Post by bbg95 on Sept 15, 2021 16:06:07 GMT -5
It was also dumb that Lex voted out Clarence at the merge because he was afraid Clarence would win every single challenge. And then Lex did the same thing in All Stars when he voted out all the stronger guys on his tribe and predictably went into the merge on the wrong side of the numbers. Lex's witch hunt toward Kelly was bad, and so was Brandon flipping over to Lex's side and costing Kim P (who he claimed was the only person he cared about) a likely win. I think Africa is a pretty good season anyway, but if Lex had been blindsided at final 9, and Kim P (or T-Bird or Kelly) won the game, I think I'd like it more. Kim P., T-Bird, & Kelly all kind of got raw deals dealing with the idiot men around them. I was bummed when T-Bird didn't make the second chance season. It does seem like there's some hope for a Kelly G. return on another B v W or Second Chance season (if they're still doing themes...), I have no idea what happened to Kim Powers. Kim Powers is married to Alex Bell from Survivor Amazon. I have no idea if she'd be interested in playing again. Edit: This reminds me of the Survivor Amazon reunion show on RHAP. Jenna completely threw Alex under the bus vis-à-vis Shawna while Kim was nearby.
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Post by Hawk Attack on Sept 15, 2021 16:41:31 GMT -5
Kim P., T-Bird, & Kelly all kind of got raw deals dealing with the idiot men around them. I was bummed when T-Bird didn't make the second chance season. It does seem like there's some hope for a Kelly G. return on another B v W or Second Chance season (if they're still doing themes...), I have no idea what happened to Kim Powers. Kim Powers is married to Alex Bell from Survivor Amazon. I have no idea if she'd be interested in playing again. Edit: This reminds me of the Survivor Amazon reunion show on RHAP. Jenna completely threw Alex under the bus vis-à-vis Shawna while Kim was nearby. That's cool how they still do these things. Rob C is pretty awesome for building the online Survivor community to what it is. Did you guys also see Claire from Survivor... Michigan? I think she was one of the creators of it, she's on this season of Big Brother (and is an amazing person, exactly the type of person we need to see more of on reality competition shows). Also there's quite the Survivor contingent competing on The Challenge now. I don't want to give too many spoilers about that since it's pretty early in that season still but the other challenge mainstays are VERY clearly threatened by the Survivor contestants.
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Post by bbg95 on Sept 15, 2021 16:52:47 GMT -5
Kim Powers is married to Alex Bell from Survivor Amazon. I have no idea if she'd be interested in playing again. Edit: This reminds me of the Survivor Amazon reunion show on RHAP. Jenna completely threw Alex under the bus vis-à-vis Shawna while Kim was nearby. That's cool how they still do these things. Rob C is pretty awesome for building the online Survivor community to what it is. Did you guys also see Claire from Survivor... Michigan? I think she was one of the creators of it, she's on this season of Big Brother (and is an amazing person, exactly the type of person we need to see more of on reality competition shows). Also there's quite the Survivor contingent competing on The Challenge now. I don't want to give too many spoilers about that since it's pretty early in that season still but the other challenge mainstays are VERY clearly threatened by the Survivor contestants. I've never seen The Challenge. I guess I could check it out, though I still have a few seasons of Survivor to finish.
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Post by Hawk Attack on Sept 15, 2021 16:56:55 GMT -5
That's cool how they still do these things. Rob C is pretty awesome for building the online Survivor community to what it is. Did you guys also see Claire from Survivor... Michigan? I think she was one of the creators of it, she's on this season of Big Brother (and is an amazing person, exactly the type of person we need to see more of on reality competition shows). Also there's quite the Survivor contingent competing on The Challenge now. I don't want to give too many spoilers about that since it's pretty early in that season still but the other challenge mainstays are VERY clearly threatened by the Survivor contestants. I've never seen The Challenge. I guess I could check it out, though I still have a few seasons of Survivor to finish. It's in the tail-end of a... dubious aesthetic makeover. I'm not sure if where The Challenge is now is as successful as they'd hoped for it to be. They've definitely made an effort to amp the competitive aspect of the show and tone down a bit of the trash and I don't think it's translated to solid viewership too well. The show now looks expensive. Looks too expensive to produce for what the potential worth of the show actually is.
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Post by bbg95 on Sept 16, 2021 12:31:02 GMT -5
If anyone wants a way to spend a lot of time on older Survivor seasons, Rob Cesternino has just finished up his rankings countdown of all 40 seasons that was determined via fan vote (though I think some of the panelists also influenced the ranking). Unsurprisingly, Heroes v. Villains was No. 1. Some of these videos are better than others, and it really depends on who the panelist are (some are Michael Jordan, while others are Bill Cartwright). The Heroes v. Villains panel is excellent, and this was the longest podcast in the history of RHAP at a little under seven hours. The other season podcasts aren't quite that long.
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Post by bbg95 on Sept 20, 2021 13:31:06 GMT -5
Well, with Survivor premiering on Wednesday, I guess I have to abandon my goal to finish all 40 seasons first. I'll get to 36, 38 and 39 eventually.
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Post by Hawk Attack on Sept 21, 2021 9:51:27 GMT -5
Well, with Survivor premiering on Wednesday, I guess I have to abandon my goal to finish all 40 seasons first. I'll get to 36, 38 and 39 eventually. Edge of Extinction is a TRIP. It definitely wasn't a boring season, that's for sure. And the next returners season is probably going to feature a few of those cast members (which is... probably a good thing, depending on which ones).
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Post by bbg95 on Sept 21, 2021 10:48:17 GMT -5
Well, with Survivor premiering on Wednesday, I guess I have to abandon my goal to finish all 40 seasons first. I'll get to 36, 38 and 39 eventually. Edge of Extinction is a TRIP. It definitely wasn't a boring season, that's for sure. And the next returners season is probably going to feature a few of those cast members (which is... probably a good thing, depending on which ones). So on Reddit, there was a thread where Jeff said that returnee seasons wouldn't feature any players from the first 40 seasons "for the foreseeable future." I'm not sure if Jeff is actually committed to this, as not bringing back some of the cast from David v. Goliath seems like malpractice. But we'll see.
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Post by Hawk Attack on Sept 21, 2021 11:44:21 GMT -5
Edge of Extinction is a TRIP. It definitely wasn't a boring season, that's for sure. And the next returners season is probably going to feature a few of those cast members (which is... probably a good thing, depending on which ones). So on Reddit, there was a thread where Jeff said that returnee seasons wouldn't feature any players from the first 40 seasons "for the foreseeable future." I'm not sure if Jeff is actually committed to this, as not bringing back some of the cast from David v. Goliath seems like malpractice. But we'll see. Oh damn... I like it but that's also pretty disappointing for some players. They wouldn't have so much returning player fatigue if they would stop bringing people back for a 3rd/4th season. Players that I would like to see back and haven't had a second chance yet are: Cagayan: LJ, Jefra, Trish San Jauan del Sur: Baylor or Missy (for a Heroes vs Villains 2... obviously) Worlds Apart: So, Carolyn, Mike Mill vs Gen X: Jessica HHH: Devon, Chrissy Ghost Island: Domenick David vs Goliath: Christian, Davie, Alison, Angelina Edge of Extinction: Reem, Julia, Wardog, Aurora, Victoria, Lauren, Devens Island of the Idols: Kellee, Elaine, Janet, Lauren, Noura, Dean, Tommy
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Post by bbg95 on Sept 21, 2021 12:18:36 GMT -5
So on Reddit, there was a thread where Jeff said that returnee seasons wouldn't feature any players from the first 40 seasons "for the foreseeable future." I'm not sure if Jeff is actually committed to this, as not bringing back some of the cast from David v. Goliath seems like malpractice. But we'll see. Oh damn... I like it but that's also pretty disappointing for some players. They wouldn't have so much returning player fatigue if they would stop bringing people back for a 3rd/4th season. Players that I would like to see back and haven't had a second chance yet are: Cagayan: LJ, Jefra, Trish San Jauan del Sur: Baylor or Missy (for a Heroes vs Villains 2... obviously) Worlds Apart: So, Carolyn, Mike Mill vs Gen X: Jessica HHH: Devon, Chrissy Ghost Island: Domenick David vs Goliath: Christian, Davie, Alison, Angelina Edge of Extinction: Reem, Julia, Wardog, Aurora, Victoria, Lauren, Devens Island of the Idols: Kellee, Elaine, Janet, Lauren, Noura, Dean, Tommy Hmm, Cagayan has had a lot of returnees already. If they brought anyone else back, I would go with Trish. Hard pass on either Missy or Baylor. I'm not sure I need to see any one-time player from San Juan del Sur return. From MvGX, Jay would be at the top of my list. I'll pass on Jessica. It's so hard to take her seriously on RHAP now that I've seen her game (if David doesn't inexplicably waste an idol on her, she goes out pre-swap). Agreed on Devon and Chrissy, and I wouldn't mind seeing Jenn again, though I doubt they would since she checked out at the end. And agreed on the David v. Goliath crew. Going back a bit further, I'd love to see Reynold get a second chance. I'd also love to see Fabio play for a second time. NaOnka too, if they have a good weather season.
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Post by Hawk Attack on Sept 21, 2021 12:24:25 GMT -5
Oh damn... I like it but that's also pretty disappointing for some players. They wouldn't have so much returning player fatigue if they would stop bringing people back for a 3rd/4th season. Players that I would like to see back and haven't had a second chance yet are: Cagayan: LJ, Jefra, Trish San Jauan del Sur: Baylor or Missy (for a Heroes vs Villains 2... obviously) Worlds Apart: So, Carolyn, Mike Mill vs Gen X: Jessica HHH: Devon, Chrissy Ghost Island: Domenick David vs Goliath: Christian, Davie, Alison, Angelina Edge of Extinction: Reem, Julia, Wardog, Aurora, Victoria, Lauren, Devens Island of the Idols: Kellee, Elaine, Janet, Lauren, Noura, Dean, Tommy Hmm, Cagayan has had a lot of returnees already. If they brought anyone else back, I would go with Trish. Hard pass on either Missy or Baylor. I'm not sure I need to see any one-time player from San Juan del Sur return. From MvGX, Jay would be at the top of my list. I'll pass on Jessica. It's so hard to take her seriously on RHAP now that I've seen her game (if David doesn't inexplicably waste an idol on her, she goes out pre-swap). Agreed on Devon and Chrissy, and I wouldn't mind seeing Jenn again, though I doubt they would since she checked out at the end. And agreed on the David v. Goliath crew. Trish is definitely my #1 from Cagayan. Out of everyone I listed she's probably top 3 in who I'd like to see back, along with Victoria for sure. Maybe Missy can have an opposite Laura Morett... Laura plays alone, comes off as an unlikeable villain in Samoa. Plays with her daughter, now a sentimental season favorite. Missy plays with her daughter, wicked stepmother of SJDS. Plays without her daughter... who knows what Missy shows up like without being locked in mama bear mode the entire time. And speaking of, Baylor is like the antithesis of Ciera Easton.
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