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Post by ajm on Jul 27, 2020 8:27:24 GMT -5
I’m fine giving Phil credit for a minor event win if it gets him to 100 given that he didn’t play in an era where there are 25 AVPs every year. Its an interesting point, and one you hear a lot, but I think in terms of comparison not really a valid one anymore. According to BVBinfo Phil has played: 146 US events 124 FIVBs Thats 270 events. BVB info has Sean Rosenthal with the 10th most events ever at 296. Phil also missed a good number of AVP and FIVBs over the years due to injury or rest. From 2011-2020 only counting AVP and FIVB, Jake has played 20 more events than Phil. I think its fair to say with better injury luck and if it were one of his goals, Phil could easily have played 300 events. For comparison Kent Steffes played 233 events. Jose Loiola played 277. Adam Johnson played 256. As an illustration, Jake Gibb has played 21 more events in his career than Tim Hovland (and Todd played more than both) I would also dispute the idea that Phil hasn't had plenty of chances to win. The AVPs he won almost never had more than 3 or 4 of the top 10 teams in the world and many had no top 5 teams - other than Phil himself. The AVP era Phil played in was maybe the weakest it ever was, with the exception of a few years post-Steffes and Loiola and pre-Phil/Todd. Contrast that with a player like Steffes or Rego who both won almost all of their events against fields that included the 10 best teams in the world. Either way Phil is going to get to 100 wins fairly either next week or next year and if he chooses to keep playing he will probably end up in the top 10 all time for tournaments played. It's not that he didn't have plenty of chances to win. It's just that he didn't have as many opportunities in his prime the way all the guys ahead of him did. And only Karch was still winning tournaments in his late 30s and early 40s. Steffes, Loiola, Stoklos, and Smith were all basically finished by age 35. Phil's longevity alone is an impressive feat. I would think that counts for him, not against him.
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Post by guest2 on Jul 27, 2020 8:33:39 GMT -5
I feel like Casey and Theo are going to snipe one of the top 3 teams in week 3. Theo has come to play for these! Right now 1, 2, and 3 are Dalcena, Cribb, and T2. I think 3rd is up for grabs though! T2 have handled their rivals for 3rd place so far, but its been pretty disappointing for them in these events. They have played both top teams twice and haven't come close to beating either. Thats 1-7 against those teams over the last two years.
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Post by tamz on Jul 27, 2020 8:37:24 GMT -5
2-8 against Cribb and Dalcena.
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Post by JB Southpaw on Jul 27, 2020 8:52:00 GMT -5
Its an interesting point, and one you hear a lot, but I think in terms of comparison not really a valid one anymore. According to BVBinfo Phil has played: 146 US events 124 FIVBs Thats 270 events. BVB info has Sean Rosenthal with the 10th most events ever at 296. Phil also missed a good number of AVP and FIVBs over the years due to injury or rest. From 2011-2020 only counting AVP and FIVB, Jake has played 20 more events than Phil. I think its fair to say with better injury luck and if it were one of his goals, Phil could easily have played 300 events. For comparison Kent Steffes played 233 events. Jose Loiola played 277. Adam Johnson played 256. As an illustration, Jake Gibb has played 21 more events in his career than Tim Hovland (and Todd played more than both) I would also dispute the idea that Phil hasn't had plenty of chances to win. The AVPs he won almost never had more than 3 or 4 of the top 10 teams in the world and many had no top 5 teams - other than Phil himself. The AVP era Phil played in was maybe the weakest it ever was, with the exception of a few years post-Steffes and Loiola and pre-Phil/Todd. Contrast that with a player like Steffes or Rego who both won almost all of their events against fields that included the 10 best teams in the world. Either way Phil is going to get to 100 wins fairly either next week or next year and if he chooses to keep playing he will probably end up in the top 10 all time for tournaments played. It's not that he didn't have plenty of chances to win. It's just that he didn't have as many opportunities in his prime the way all the guys ahead of him did. And only Karch was still winning tournaments in his late 30s and early 40s. Steffes, Loiola, Stoklos, and Smith were all basically finished by age 35. Phil's longevity alone is an impressive feat. I would think that counts for him, not against him. guest2I think Jake, over the last decade has chosen to stay home and cherry pick the AVPs, Where as Phil and Partner have played FIVBs. The Injury issue is real, and it only hasn't been Phil. Nick and Sean both missed time. Leading up to the last Olympics where he and Nick had to get qualified hurt too. 2015, 16 and 17 were bad, He played in 4, 4, 4 AVPs and in 2016 playing in 13 FIVBs took a lot out of him.
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Post by KO7 on Jul 27, 2020 10:53:22 GMT -5
I’ll admit to eating crow these days regarding Nick Lucena. Don’t know what the majority sentiment was, but I was one of the ones who thought Nick totally rode the coattails of Phil’s domination and that Phil “deserved” a much better partner to complement him.
After watching Dalcena more and more, it should’ve been obvious to me that Nick is an incredible player in his own right too. My excuse is that I mainly follow the Canadians, so naturally the Canadian women are the ones who get more coverage in the world of beach volleyball due to their relative success (opposite results for the indoor Canadian teams).
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Post by ajm on Jul 27, 2020 12:28:46 GMT -5
Agree that in hindsight I’m not sure there’s been a better partner for Phil the past five years other than Nick. You could probably argue that Taylor is better now, but it’s close and after those two there’s a huge drop off.
It’s also pretty crazy that among the top 8 AVP men’s teams making the main draw for these events, at least 6 of the players are older than 40 (depending on how you want to count Ed, Ricardo, and Ty for qualifying).
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Post by JB Southpaw on Jul 27, 2020 12:33:43 GMT -5
In 2016, I wonder if Hyden would have been better than Nick, but not the last 2 years.
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Post by tamz on Jul 27, 2020 13:00:17 GMT -5
In 2016, I wonder if Hyden would have been better than Nick, but not the last 2 years. Then it’ll be 3 “little angry guys” he’s played with 🤣
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Post by ebes1099 on Jul 27, 2020 13:33:05 GMT -5
Well, the NORCECA that they won was pretty stacked for a NORCECA event. www.bvbinfo.com/Tournament.asp?ID=3082Dain Blanton thought the “other” event won was a Venice Beach backyard tournament 😂 That Venice backyard event used to be awesome. There was a long Volleyball magazine article about it a long time ago It was a relatively strong NORCECA but there are 2-3 amateur events a year in Florida with better fields. Plus I refuse to live in a world where Avery Drost is considered as having a real victory. There's 2-3 amateur events in Florida with more than 8 Olympians in them? (Phil, Nick, O'Gorman, Pedlow, Ontiveros, Virgen, Gibb, Patterson, Saxton, Schalk)
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Post by guest2 on Jul 27, 2020 16:56:56 GMT -5
It's not that he didn't have plenty of chances to win. It's just that he didn't have as many opportunities in his prime the way all the guys ahead of him did. And only Karch was still winning tournaments in his late 30s and early 40s. Steffes, Loiola, Stoklos, and Smith were all basically finished by age 35. Phil's longevity alone is an impressive feat. I would think that counts for him, not against him. guest2I think Jake, over the last decade has chosen to stay home and cherry pick the AVPs, Where as Phil and Partner have played FIVBs. The Injury issue is real, and it only hasn't been Phil. Nick and Sean both missed time. Leading up to the last Olympics where he and Nick had to get qualified hurt too. 2015, 16 and 17 were bad, He played in 4, 4, 4 AVPs and in 2016 playing in 13 FIVBs took a lot out of him. Except that most years, Jake also played more FIVBs or they played the same number. 95 for Jake and 84 for Phil from 2011-2019
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Post by guest2 on Jul 27, 2020 18:18:18 GMT -5
That Venice backyard event used to be awesome. There was a long Volleyball magazine article about it a long time ago It was a relatively strong NORCECA but there are 2-3 amateur events a year in Florida with better fields. Plus I refuse to live in a world where Avery Drost is considered as having a real victory. There's 2-3 amateur events in Florida with more than 8 Olympians in them? (Phil, Nick, O'Gorman, Pedlow, Ontiveros, Virgen, Gibb, Patterson, Saxton, Schalk) Its a good point, I think I missed Jake/Casey when I glanced at the list of teams. Larger point still valid. Doing an event by event consideration is just too hard and then what would the standard be anyway
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Post by tamz on Jul 30, 2020 14:52:26 GMT -5
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Post by pbbandito on Jul 31, 2020 20:19:22 GMT -5
What is the consensus with Phil and Nick’s performance? Are they playing lights out against a difficult field of competitors, or are they playing at a relatively predictable level against a weaker tour? I’ve heard both perspectives, I’m just curious how their current level of play would compare internationally.
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Post by wonderwarthog79 on Jul 31, 2020 22:06:45 GMT -5
What is the consensus with Phil and Nick’s performance? Are they playing lights out against a difficult field of competitors, or are they playing at a relatively predictable level against a weaker tour? I’ve heard both perspectives, I’m just curious how their current level of play would compare internationally. You'd have to see them now against international competition to know. Their last tournament, however, was very impressive. I'm another who doubted Lucena, and I still think Phil could have found a better "chaser," but Nick's been with Phil a long time. They know each other's game, and Nick was really fun to watch in the last match.
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