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Post by rollosideout on Aug 10, 2020 13:34:29 GMT -5
Sorry dumb question coming but when/why did it become ok for players to go overboard with lifts during sand volleyball. Especially at juniors, you see kids basically catch the ball and throw it to perfect area for hitter.
Compounding the fact that lifts never are called, double hits ARE called quite a bit on sand (which they should be always) but doubles usually don't give the offensive team an advantage while the dumptruck lift is an absolute unfair advantage.
I'm sure there is a reason for this, just haven't heard. Thanks for patience with my ignorance (still learning beach game).
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Post by sonofdogman on Aug 10, 2020 13:41:47 GMT -5
It's been that way for A LONG time. Trend has been to go away from it of late, but "deep-dishing" as it is sometimes referred to was a staple of the beach game in 80's, 90's & 00's. Some indoor folks, when they see it in the gym, call it beach hands.
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Post by butteryhands on Aug 10, 2020 13:54:02 GMT -5
Doubles are called quite less than they used to be. As far as "deep dishing" goes I think it is typically fine as long as the setter is not breaking his elbows after contacting the ball and that other factors such as whether they're facing the target and how clean the ball comes out are considered. Let's just say any good player knows a bad set when they see or do it. Now whether they're honest enough to call it is another matter. If you're referring to young juniors, then their lack of strength, timing and footwork will all contribute to mishandled sets. But at that level you should be trying to get them all to develop good handsetting skills. Which will only happen if they're using them.
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Post by junior1 on Aug 10, 2020 15:51:17 GMT -5
Juniors often ref other junior games. & they call what they are comfortable calling. My oh my, just watch the beach refs hired to ref in the South East/Mid South East conferences... they know even less about the beach game and often let everything fly.
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Post by luvmychiceraffe on Aug 10, 2020 16:25:13 GMT -5
purely my opinion: Back in sidedout scoring days the emphasis of setting was on zero spin of the ball when it left the hands. So naturally players would hold it longer to make sure all the spin was stopped before releasing.
I think the FIVB realized how advantageous holding the ball like that is. So the international game began to adopt a policy of watching the ball contact the hands as the ball comes in and as it goes out during setting to judge whether or not it was a double contact. As a result they are able to force players to not hold the ball for very long.
From a physics perspective it's impossible to open hand set without having your hands touch the ball at different times (or double). So the question of what can be legal with hand setting becomes: what gives undue advantage to the setter?
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Post by jackson5vb on Aug 11, 2020 13:06:15 GMT -5
Not exactly a setting question. But can someone explain the true rules about overhand passing the first contact? Does it differ by region? Is AVP different from FIVB? I've seen so many different interpretations based on different places I lived or traveled to. And I've heard different answers from different tournament organizers.
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Post by volleyballjim on Aug 11, 2020 20:51:07 GMT -5
Not exactly a setting question. But can someone explain the true rules about overhand passing the first contact? Does it differ by region? Is AVP different from FIVB? I've seen so many different interpretations based on different places I lived or traveled to. And I've heard different answers from different tournament organizers. The CBVA (Calif Beach vb assn) has the best idea on overhand passing the serve: OUTLAW it. It's in the rule book that open hand reception of service is not legal.... |
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Post by sonofdogman on Aug 11, 2020 23:14:26 GMT -5
Not exactly a setting question. But can someone explain the true rules about overhand passing the first contact? Does it differ by region? Is AVP different from FIVB? I've seen so many different interpretations based on different places I lived or traveled to. And I've heard different answers from different tournament organizers. The CBVA (Calif Beach vb assn) has the best idea on overhand passing the serve: OUTLAW it. It's in the rule book that open hand reception of service is not legal.... I'm not sure why you think that is the best idea. I think it is the worst idea. If you cannot set a served ball without committing a fault, then don't try it. It is difficult to do so, and therefore most just don't ever attempt it or even train for it. But for a few exceptional hand-setters who can set the serve without committing a fault, why prohibit it? For reference and to answer this poster's question, there is no difference between the FIVB, USAV or FIVB rules. Those rules say what is and isn't a fault in playing the ball. They don't explicitly delineate reception of served balls from other first contacts. So basically it's as it's always been for judging handsets: it is a fault to double contact or lift the ball. |
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Post by volleyballjim on Aug 12, 2020 0:07:11 GMT -5
The CBVA (Calif Beach vb assn) has the best idea on overhand passing the serve: OUTLAW it. It's in the rule book that open hand reception of service is not legal.... I'm not sure why you think that is the best idea. I think it is the worst idea. If you cannot set a served ball without committing a fault, then don't try it. It is difficult to do so, and therefore most just don't ever attempt it or even train for it. But for a few exceptional hand-setters who can set the serve without committing a fault, why prohibit it? For reference and to answer this poster's question, there is no difference between the FIVB, USAV or FIVB rules. Those rules say what is and isn't a fault in playing the ball. They don't explicitly delineate reception of served balls from other first contacts. So basically it's as it's always been for judging handsets: it is a fault to double contact or lift the ball. So a pro-level serve is open handed: Simultaneous contact (yeah, right), clean, etc....OK, for every 4 of those done IN THE WORLD each day, should we allow it for the 40,000 that AREN'T clean open contacts of a pro-level?advanced serve? Lower skill level than that? I don't even want to discuss open receive of serve....LOL....Hey, a few could pull it off, but with any reasonable service velocity, few can handle it properly, hell, 3/4 can't hand set a bump properly off the serve.... |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2020 0:36:55 GMT -5
you missed his point jim. he’s not saying it should be legal to double the first contact if you hand set it.
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Post by beavis on Aug 12, 2020 5:07:41 GMT -5
Not exactly a setting question. But can someone explain the true rules about overhand passing the first contact? Does it differ by region? Is AVP different from FIVB? I've seen so many different interpretations based on different places I lived or traveled to. And I've heard different answers from different tournament organizers. The CBVA (Calif Beach vb assn) has the best idea on overhand passing the serve: OUTLAW it. It's in the rule book that open hand reception of service is not legal.... Which is very smart and well-reasoned. If a serve is not considered a hard-driven ball, it seems silly to further loosen the rules by gradually allowing folks to chuck up a serve to the setter. Its the grossest thing to see indoors, and there was absolutely no reason for it with 6 people already on the court. Watch an NCAA men's match - it is absolutely appalling how loosely interpreted the rule has become. I'm sure many of you will say that it should be allowed if it comes out perfectly, but it never does, and to have yet another "judgment call" for a ref to screw up during play, and which will obviously vary from ref to ref, makes no sense whatsoever. Just outlaw ever taking a serve with open hands - then there will never be any controversy. My lord, we already have a little baby court and a million other little things which favor bigs who never learned to properly bump a ball - do we really need more? |
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Post by Winbabywin on Aug 12, 2020 7:29:35 GMT -5
AGAIN, he did NOT advocate for over-hand doubling the serve. The original question was why is it called differently in different regions; the answer is, it is not called differently. Nowhere in the world can you receive a serve open-handed and double it, it is ILLEGAL EVERYWHERE. It is LEGAL however, to receive a serve over-hand, if it comes out clean. The reason for the confusion, is that it is rarely, if ever attempted, because it is so difficult to pull off.
NONE of these posters want it to become legal to double an overhand serve reception.
As for the deep dish, that definitely varies from region to region. I have mostly lived and played in the Midwest and in the Southeast. Tampa is probably the biggest collection of deep-dishers I have ever seen, Orlando is fairly middle of the road, as is Miami. North Floridians get rid of the ball fairly quickly, as do the Cajuns. Midwesterners (OH, PA area) have a bigger mix of indoor players playing beach as well, so they too get rid of the ball pretty quickly.
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Post by sonofdogman on Aug 12, 2020 8:59:59 GMT -5
So for anyone who believes it should be a fault to set the serve, what is your reason that the very, very few which are clean and legal contacts should be called a fault?
Is it because someone has the audacity to actually pull it off without doubling or lifting it? Are you jealous that they actually did it while others, maybe even you, cannot? I just don't understand why an otherwise permitted contact would be called and I don't understand the CBVA's reasoning.
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Post by guest2 on Aug 12, 2020 11:45:09 GMT -5
So for anyone who believes it should be a fault to set the serve, what is your reason that the very, very few which are clean and legal contacts should be called a fault? Is it because someone has the audacity to actually pull it off without doubling or lifting it? Are you jealous that they actually did it while others, maybe even you, cannot? I just don't understand why an otherwise permitted contact would be called and I don't understand the CBVA's reasoning. I think Jim and Beavis are exactly right. This is a play that almost never happens and every time it does, in my experience anyway, leads to an argument. The majority of people who play this game are playing in matches reffed by other players, as opposed to paid refs. In that context it makes sense to minimize the potential for arguments if its something that almost never affects the actual game and happens once in a blue moon anyway. Also with how the AVP and FIVB continually loosen setting rules (think Sponcil's grab, turn and throws or Ana Paula's ice tongs) if its permitted eventually some smart player will start doing it and arguing, "if you let Ana's and Theo's and every other players horrible sets go, then you shouldn't call this either." While unlikely its possible that leads to even less ball control being required, more big oafs, etc. |
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Post by ramo2653 on Aug 12, 2020 18:10:47 GMT -5
Jim, regarding open hand, if a player put two hands together and contacted the ball to pop it up or over on a serve, is that considered illegal per CBVA? Or would you have to actually attempt to set it?
Usually when I play, the first scenario is legal but the second isn't because like you and G2 have mentioned, it's just going to lead to more arguments and it's not worth it. Also if you can hand set a serve that well, you better be able to pass with your arms well.
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