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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2021 1:14:30 GMT -5
Yeah, so far I am not a fan of the VNL's core/challenger team model. It offers ZERO incentives/paths for challenger teams to become core teams. Also fun fact, we have yet to see a Challenge Cup winning team avoid relegation in their first appearance in the VNL, in both the men's and women's tournament. Both CHCup winners in 2018 were relegated in 2019. I fear that Canada will not avoid this fate on the women's side. It will all depend on which teams show up and with how much firepower. I think Slovenia on the men's side will do well and break the cycle this year. I think if a core team performs poorly/doesn't take the tournament seriously, there should be a penalty. For example, each year we should see the lowest ranked core team after the main phase get demoted to a challenger team for the next edition. Then, promote the highest ranked challenger team to a core team. I also think we should relegate more than just the lowest challenger team. Maybe the lowest two or three. I would do that if there were more of them, say 6 challenger teams instead of 4. 12 core teams is a lot. Also, CAVB (Africa) should have been given a chance to be a core team back during the inaugural tournament. That's not "growing the game" if we exclude an entire Confederation. Based on the current trends, we are going to keep relegating non CEV teams while likely only promoting the same from the Challenge Cup where CEV get's 2 slots out of 6 participants in both genders! Obviously, Europe is more competitive and this will make the tournament more competitive as the quad progresses. I think the solution would be to reset the totals in the first year of an Olympic quad. Each Confederation (NORCECA, CSV, CAVB, AVC and CEV) get at least one slot say in 2025. Then, apply the model I laid out above. It would make the tournament have even more of an impact IMO. Just some thoughts. Ya'll know how I be 🤷🏻♂️😏 This reminds of the relegation system found in European soccer leagues. Unlike North American major leagues, which are essentially a "closed shop", European leagues operate with a relegation system. Take the English Premier League for example, the top level of professional soccer in England. The three lowest teams of the Premier league are relegated to the EFL Championship and the top two teams from the Championship are promoted to the Premier league, with one other spot being decided by play-offs. The total number of teams of the Premier League have remain stable at around 20.
The problem though is that the newly promoted teams to the Premier League often are relegated back to the Championship after just one season. They didn't have the resources to hire top-flight players to compete with the top Premier League clubs. There was a "hierarchy" developing, the top teams, like Manchester United, Arsenal, Manchester City and Chelsea have comfortably remain in the top and have no fear of relegation given their deep wallets. Then you got a group of mid-tier teams like Southampton, Newcastle, Everton and Tottenham Hotspur, they aren't in serious danger of relegation but neither are they in contention of winning the the top trophies in most seasons. Finally you got the bottom-tier teams which struggle merely to stay in the Premier League. Because dropping back to the EFL means a big loss in revenues and financial stability.
Not sure if that model is suitable for the VNL, as the bottom teams would be really hard-pressed not to be relegated. The nationality requirement would also mean they simply can't hire a good player from another NT either even if they have the money. Although I agree it would certainly make the top teams take the VNL more seriously and not send their B teams to the tournament.
I'm not sure that example is relevant though. These aren't pro teams with their rosters being overhauled each year with talent coming and going based on a budget. Most of these players don't make a ton of money during the International Season unless they win tournaments like these. I think that resetting the narrative at the beginning of each quad, as I mentioned above, could be the variable that makes the whole equation work. All of this is pure speculation since the formula I pitched isn't the official one. I just think that as the pool of decent mid-tier teams in the women's game gets bigger, the tournament's format will have to be adjusted. We can't keep excluding large groups of teams. That is why I pitched relegating more teams to the Challenge Cup/Second Tier so that the groups shuffle a bit more. I already think that a 16 team pool is too large. The athletes also hate it. It's why most of the big guns sit out for most of the tournament, if they participate at all. I have to question how long fans will be interested in this tournament if the stars of the game are absent. It would honestly be better to have two tiers like the WGP but make them true round robins like the VNL. So a hybrid of the two if you will. If there were 12 teams in each division you still get a wider net cast and we as fans get to see some of the teams we aren't as familiar with like Canada, Colombia, Cameroon/Kenya and Kazakhstan for example. Just exposing teams like that to elite level competition helps them get better. I also think that coaches of newly promoted teams like Bulgaria in 2019 who don't call up their veterans like Vasileva and Rabadzieva should reconsider the "training" aspect of the tournament. I mean, if you make the cut, you should put your best players on the court and attempt to at least stay in the tournament. That is what we have seen from Belgium, Poland and Dominicana. They have all avoided relegation twice. What do you think? |
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Post by ironhammer on Mar 31, 2021 1:30:23 GMT -5
This reminds of the relegation system found in European soccer leagues. Unlike North American major leagues, which are essentially a "closed shop", European leagues operate with a relegation system. Take the English Premier League for example, the top level of professional soccer in England. The three lowest teams of the Premier league are relegated to the EFL Championship and the top two teams from the Championship are promoted to the Premier league, with one other spot being decided by play-offs. The total number of teams of the Premier League have remain stable at around 20.
The problem though is that the newly promoted teams to the Premier League often are relegated back to the Championship after just one season. They didn't have the resources to hire top-flight players to compete with the top Premier League clubs. There was a "hierarchy" developing, the top teams, like Manchester United, Arsenal, Manchester City and Chelsea have comfortably remain in the top and have no fear of relegation given their deep wallets. Then you got a group of mid-tier teams like Southampton, Newcastle, Everton and Tottenham Hotspur, they aren't in serious danger of relegation but neither are they in contention of winning the the top trophies in most seasons. Finally you got the bottom-tier teams which struggle merely to stay in the Premier League. Because dropping back to the EFL means a big loss in revenues and financial stability.
Not sure if that model is suitable for the VNL, as the bottom teams would be really hard-pressed not to be relegated. The nationality requirement would also mean they simply can't hire a good player from another NT either even if they have the money. Although I agree it would certainly make the top teams take the VNL more seriously and not send their B teams to the tournament.
I'm not sure that example is relevant though. These aren't pro teams with their rosters being overhauled each year with talent coming and going based on a budget. Most of these players don't make a ton of money during the International Season unless they win tournaments like these. I think that resetting the narrative at the beginning of each quad, as I mentioned above, could be the variable that makes the whole equation work. Interesting..but I don't see that happening with the FIVB. As for not being pro teams, true, but the same logic applies, they will be hard-pressed to make it for more than one season. So not sure how that will be better than the current system, because we see with the current relegation system in European soccer, the promoted team gets relegated almost as a matter of fact after their sole season at the top. |
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Post by reformate on Mar 31, 2021 2:59:29 GMT -5
Six hosts
CHN JPN ITA TUR USA BRA
Six top teams from FIVB ranking
SRB RUS DOM KOR NED GER
Four teams from Challenger Cup
Serpentine system from FIVB ranking
POL BEL THA PRC
BUL COL CAN ARG
KAZ CZE KEN CMR
PER MEX AZE CRO
No core teams.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2021 10:23:36 GMT -5
Six hosts CHN JPN ITA TUR USA BRA Six top teams from FIVB ranking SRB RUS DOM KOR NED GER Four teams from Challenger Cup Serpentine system from FIVB ranking POL BEL THA PRC BUL COL CAN ARG KAZ CZE KEN CMR PER MEX AZE CRO No core teams. That's 28 teams listed. Are you suggesting the 4 Challenger Cup teams come from that pool of 16 you listed in that box? I'm confused as to the format you are suggesting but I am curious. Are you suggesting that not all teams play each other? |
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Post by reformate on Mar 31, 2021 12:11:51 GMT -5
Six hosts CHN JPN ITA TUR USA BRA Six top teams from FIVB ranking SRB RUS DOM KOR NED GER Four teams from Challenger Cup Serpentine system from FIVB ranking POL BEL THA PRC BUL COL CAN ARG KAZ CZE KEN CMR PER MEX AZE CRO No core teams. That's 28 teams listed. Are you suggesting the 4 Challenger Cup teams come from that pool of 16 you listed in that box? I'm confused as to the format you are suggesting but I am curious. Are you suggesting that not all teams play each other? Oh I meant four VNL slots to be contested in the Challenger Cup, with each slot being contested by four teams. Each column is like a pool with the winner playing in the VNL. |
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Post by alohavball on Apr 1, 2021 14:28:48 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2021 14:30:05 GMT -5
no Sheilla or Thaisa? Dang |
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Post by alohavball on Apr 1, 2021 14:32:29 GMT -5
no Sheilla or Thaisa? Dang Sheilla is likely out. Thaisa as well as other players that will round out their VNL roster is still playing in the finals, they will join afterwards. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2021 14:32:53 GMT -5
no Sheilla or Thaisa? Dang This is just the preliminary list. Thaisa is still playing in the Brazilian league and Sheilla isn't back in Brazil/will have to quarantine. I don't think we'll see Sheilla though. Thaisa will get the eventual call |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2021 14:33:28 GMT -5
no Sheilla or Thaisa? Dang Sheilla is likely out. Thaisa as well as other players that will round out their VNL roster is still playing in the finals, they will join afterwards. ohh so that means Ze Roberto doesn’t think Sheilla can contribute on the court then? That’s what I understand from her interview |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2021 14:34:04 GMT -5
no Sheilla or Thaisa? Dang This is just the preliminary list. Thaisa is still playing in the Brazilian league and Sheilla isn't back in Brazil/will have to quarantine. I don't think we'll see Sheilla though. Thaisa will get the eventual call well how am I supposed to watch the queen now?  |
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Post by eazy on Apr 1, 2021 14:44:26 GMT -5
This is just the preliminary list. Thaisa is still playing in the Brazilian league and Sheilla isn't back in Brazil/will have to quarantine. I don't think we'll see Sheilla though. Thaisa will get the eventual call well how am I supposed to watch the queen now? YouTube replays |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2021 14:48:31 GMT -5
well how am I supposed to watch the queen now? YouTube replays just rewatched USA vs Brazil 2016 world Grand Prix I think it was yesterday while “paying attention in class” Sheilla kinda sucked for most of the game but came through when Brazil needed her haha |
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Post by Wichsen on Apr 1, 2021 15:39:39 GMT -5
Why some of you wants to see her play for NT? I mean she WAS okay when was still playing 5 or even 10yrs ago but now? About time they give priority to youbg players. If they want to win OG sheilla can't help them. She is not a scoring machine and definitely not as good as before. Just like USA Team, you want young players to play for development.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2021 16:43:13 GMT -5
Why some of you wants to see her play for NT? I mean she WAS okay when was still playing 5 or even 10yrs ago but now? About time they give priority to youbg players. If they want to win OG sheilla can't help them. She is not a scoring machine and definitely not as good as before. Just like USA Team, you want young players to play for development. I disagree. If she keeps training and getting back into form she can still be terminal with a good setter. We saw glimpses of this at AU |
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