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Post by c4ndlelight on Feb 9, 2021 15:37:49 GMT -5
Lack of minimum wage laws are incredibly rough for people looking for internships. There are entire professions where unpaid/underpaid internships have completely distorted the job market (architecture, media, others). This isn't an outcome of a fair market but rather companies have colluded to leave new job market entrants - who often have extensive and expensive qualifications - with no paid opportunities for any resume-building job. It does inflate salaries at higher levels - so those already in the market or with the resources to survive with little/no income for the internship period accrue wealth while those with little wealth who can't are left with ballooning debt and stuck in the most marginal jobs in that profession.
Another side effect of this is it exacerbates the oversupply and gives artificially high employment outcomes that mislead young people into pursuing expensive educations with little pay-off.
You can't talk about unemployment in the context of minimum wage laws without looking at the significant underemployment weak minimum wage laws have created. For every scare tactic about a higher minimum wage potentially closing off certain roles, there are myriad real-world impacts of the abuse made possible by the lack of a mandated living minimum wage.
* And let's not forget underemployment's distortion of our typical markers of the economy's performance.
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Post by mikegarrison on Feb 9, 2021 15:59:27 GMT -5
Supply and demand dictates wages. If we artificially put in a minimum - then the quantity of labor demanded at the new rate will be more than the quantity supplied. This will lead to underemployment. Similar to price restrictions implemented in the 1970's - it created shortages as the quantity supplied at the fixed price was much less than the quantity demanded. Yes, yes, you already said this. We already rebutted it. So you come back here to say it again, like maybe we didn't understand? Did you follow what we were saying, that your analysis is only valid in a closed environment where there is no feedback loop between overall demand for services and the amount of money that is circulating in the general population?
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Post by donut on Feb 9, 2021 16:23:32 GMT -5
Thank god policymakers don't use simple supply and demand charts to make all of their decisions.
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Post by mikegarrison on Feb 9, 2021 16:40:02 GMT -5
On a personal note, I've never actually worked an hourly minimum wage job. I've worked day-labor type jobs for cash under the table, and I've worked salaried jobs for more than minimum wage. But I've never worked a straight minimum wage job (or technically, any non-cash "hourly" job at all).
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2021 16:47:01 GMT -5
I have. Right around $2/hour as I recall.
Profreding.
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Post by mikegarrison on Feb 9, 2021 16:53:25 GMT -5
I have. Right around $2/hour as I recall. Profreding. LOL "Profreding"
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Feb 9, 2021 18:01:54 GMT -5
Supply and demand dictates wages. If we artificially put in a minimum - then the quantity of labor demanded at the new rate will be more than the quantity supplied. This will lead to underemployment. Similar to price restrictions implemented in the 1970's - it created shortages as the quantity supplied at the fixed price was much less than the quantity demanded. Yes, yes, you already said this. We already rebutted it. So you come back here to say it again, like maybe we didn't understand? Did you follow what we were saying, that your analysis is only valid in a closed environment where there is no feedback loop between overall demand for services and the amount of money that is circulating in the general population? I read what you said - and it makes no sense. CBO says 1.4M lost employment, did they misunderstand the 'closed environment' non sense? Any economics book I know would say the same thing...
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Post by mikegarrison on Feb 9, 2021 18:37:34 GMT -5
Let's go back to your claim that "no economist could believe that increasing the minimum wage wouldn't cause an increase in unemployment". Let's also look at the recent CBO report. www.cnbc.com/2021/02/08/democrats-press-ahead-on-15-minimum-wage-despite-deficit-worries-.htmlHere we see that some economists do dispute both the CBO report and also the general idea that increasing the minimum wage would increase unemployment. My big problem with "economic science" is that generally it's not. Not a science. It's a math model, but far too often nobody actually does the work to validate it in the real world. Anyway, the point here is that your claims that this is all obvious and irrefutable do not seem to be born out. Claims need to be tested. What tests have you done? There are what you might call several on-going tests of $15 minimum wage right now, involving various locations around the country having passes such laws. Of course, for most of them COVID has completely disrupted the economy far more than any measurable effects due to minimum wage, so as far as I know the verdict of the real-world testing is still unclear.
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Post by c4ndlelight on Feb 9, 2021 18:39:29 GMT -5
What's funny about the CBO study is that it claims even with 1.4MM job losses, there's still a NET of 900K out of poverty. So if the ideal is more people in poverty, but working, then that's your goal, innit?
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Post by n00b on Feb 9, 2021 18:41:56 GMT -5
They should aim to do an increase taking location into account. Nothing prevents a local jurisdiction from setting a higher minimum wage. The Federal level is only the floor. Current minimum wage in Seattle is $16.69/hr. Is that supposed to be an example of a jurisdiction going above and beyond? $15/hr in Montgomery, AL would be equivalent to $26/hr in Seattle.
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Post by mervinswerved on Feb 9, 2021 18:42:39 GMT -5
Also, the field of Economics tends to just be the field of the economics of capitalism. It's almost completely captured by the structure in which it exists.
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Post by donut on Feb 9, 2021 18:46:11 GMT -5
Nothing prevents a local jurisdiction from setting a higher minimum wage. The Federal level is only the floor. Current minimum wage in Seattle is $16.69/hr. Is that supposed to be an example of a jurisdiction going above and beyond? $15/hr in Montgomery, AL would be equivalent to $26/hr in Seattle. Living wage for a single adult in Montgomery, AL is $11.18. Add in 1 kid, and it's $22.82. Let's do $25/hour!
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Post by mervinswerved on Feb 9, 2021 18:47:04 GMT -5
Is that supposed to be an example of a jurisdiction going above and beyond? $15/hr in Montgomery, AL would be equivalent to $26/hr in Seattle. Living wage for a single adult in Montgomery, AL is $11.18. Add in 1 kid, and it's $22.82. Let's do $25/hour! Let's do $15 but just send everyone a check for $600 every week instead!
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Post by HOLIDAY on Feb 9, 2021 18:52:53 GMT -5
I won't matter what I share with liberals because they can have direct knowledge from someone who has actually lived it, and they will still maintain that they know best. That is arrogance at its finest.
I have owned two small businesses and sold one recently. My current business employs two mothers who appreciate working around their childrens schedules. We also employ two female retirees who supplement their retirement and social security. What will happen to these people if minimum wage goes to $15.00 dollars an hour? They will be without a job or their hours will be cut down signficantly. Liberals never consider the consequences of their actions. Its sounds wonderful on paper until businesses try to implement it. Then its a disaster. The sad thing is....the 15 dollars has become political and hardly what is best for small business and the people just trying to make ends meet. A job at 12.00 dollars an hour is better than no job at all because a do-gooder price these people on social security out of a part time job. Think for a change whats best for the working class and not just what makes Democrats more polically attractive to voters. Stop being so selfish.
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Post by HOLIDAY on Feb 9, 2021 18:57:35 GMT -5
The people and businesses that will be hit the hardest? Restaurants who are hanging on by their fingernails after Covid and people on social security looking for extra income.
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