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Post by reader on May 18, 2021 13:53:23 GMT -5
The point is that your assertion that public schools have an unfair advantage in D3 and that private schools cannot compete with a sticker price is simply absurd. The point is not disproven simply because some private schools can still compete on the field/court. The point stands, and is correct. UW campuses should be forced up to DII. They would not be required to offer athletic scholarships, if they did not want to. You lost me there. There are a lot of public D3 schools and they are not winning a disproportionate number of titles any more than the large endowment schools complained about above. In fact plenty of them are getting kicked around by their smaller, more expensive, non-scholarship private D3 peers. And that has more to do with the strength of the programs, resource allocation choices made by administrations, and the basic appeal of the schools than it does with the charter. What purpose is served by moving a slightly above average team beating weak schools into a conference where they will get killed by scholarship athletes? Where's the improvement when a 6-2 UW-Superior stops playing a 0-11 Crown College and picks up teams from the Northern Sun? This would be imposed from outside on public schools that do not control their own finances, so it's unlikely they'll have any more resources to contend with the jump in quality. Or are you just declaring the WIAC a D2 conference the prevent them from any post-season success whatsoever? Who is being protected here? Crown is not going to get better, you'll just have fewer D3 teams of lower quality, more D2 teams of lower quality, and I guess some warm sense of accomplishment for effecting change? Change is not progress.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2021 13:58:33 GMT -5
The point is not disproven simply because some private schools can still compete on the field/court. The point stands, and is correct. UW campuses should be forced up to DII. They would not be required to offer athletic scholarships, if they did not want to. You lost me there. There are a lot of public D3 schools and they are not winning a disproportionate number of titles any more than the large endowment schools complained about above. In fact plenty of them are getting kicked around by their smaller, more expensive, non-scholarship private D3 peers. And that has more to do with the strength of the programs, resource allocation choices made by administrations, and the basic appeal of the schools than it does with the charter. What purpose is served by moving a slightly above average team beating weak schools into a conference where they will get killed by scholarship athletes? Where's the improvement when a 6-2 UW-Superior stops playing a 0-11 Crown College and picks up teams from the Northern Sun? This would be imposed from outside on public schools that do not control their own finances, so it's unlikely they'll have any more resources to contend with the jump in quality. Or are you just declaring the WIAC a D2 conference the prevent them from any post-season success whatsoever? Who is being protected here? Crown is not going to get better, you'll just have fewer D3 teams of lower quality, more D2 teams of lower quality, and I guess some warm sense of accomplishment for effecting change? Change is not progress. Just being public isn't the thing alone. There are public schools that look like DIII liberal arts colleges.
(Granted, there are DIII private universities that look like all other levels, and with a wide variety of aspirations)
The UW campuses look and feel every bit as much like DII schools in the Northern Sun, other than scholarships. They should not be in the same division, competing for the same national titles, as MIAC schools.
That's really the extent of what I care about. There perhaps are other situations around the country that are fairly analogous. But even if there aren't ... I still want UW's out.
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Post by reader on May 18, 2021 14:20:56 GMT -5
This is not really a thing that changes the landscape. Some schools can afford to play at this game, but they typically do not. There are rules about scholarships, very clear penalties for bogus academic payments, and most of the cheating in this realm is not done by the affluent schools. The things that made them attractive enough to build vast endowments also make them attractive to prospective students so they really don't need to cheat. So while Trinity and Colorado College may have large endowments and play for titles, the schools getting caught are Mary Hardin Baker, U of WI - Stevens Point and Emmanuel, and they are largely shuffling regular financial aid around or cutting corners on "outside benefits" rather than producing $15k renewable leadership scholarships that would easily be flagged. Here's a series of lists on D3 endowments from last year: www.d3playbook.com/2020/03/endowments.html NCAA D3 major infractions: web3.ncaa.org/lsdbi/search?types=major&q=Publics can easily compete in D3 because they're usually quite a bit cheaper than privates to begin with. Come up north where many WI, NJ and NY state schools compete successfully while maintaining comity and athletic parity with their private neighbors. Also, Trinity has a nice program and some nice dollars, but the fact is that there are not many D3 programs in Texas so the few that exist are going to draw well from the students that want that experience, and since TX has a lot of excellent VB there's a lot of talent to choose from. But they are in no way competitive with D1 in any measure other than endowment: their #2 ranked squad tops out at 6'. Where you do see the influence is in how much travel they get to do vs most other D3 programs, or perhaps in the facilities and equipment. My goodness it's hard to even know where to begin. But I'll start with, there are VERY few major infractions in D3 on the website you provided. Hasn't even been one recorded since 2016. There aren't that many D3 programs in Texas? Hmmm. Trinity, Southwestern, Hardin-Simmons, Mary Hardin-Baylor, Sul Ross State, Austin College, UT Dallas, University of Dallas, LeTourneau, East Texas Baptist, Howard Payne, St. Thomas, Schreiner, Texas Lutheran. Which state has more? There are a number of these programs that would easily compete in D2 and even D1. Trinity, as an example, has 3680 Pablo Ranking points in 2019. That's ahead of approximately 40 D1 programs, and 207 D2 programs. Sort the data: two in 2020, three in 2019, another in 2018, three more in 2017, and five in 2016. So 14 D3 schools in Texas, a state with 30m population? Look east and north: MN (pop 5.7m) has 20, WI (pop 5.9m) has 25, I lost count twice in PA, NY is around 50, heck Maine has 11. There's a cool interactive map here www.ncaa.org/about/resources/research/ncaa-member-schoolsI'm from MN and am watching St Thomas make the very jump you're describing, and looking at the estimated mountain of money they're going to have to raise to do this really illustrates how few schools can even contemplate it. You need to upgrade most facilities and put millions into scholarships and then commit to that budget for years going forward. Contrast that, or Trinity's $1.2bn endowment, with the many D3 schools cutting budgets, dropping programs and working hard just to not close. The D3 world is a broad canvas with many types of schools that only share a lack of large financial commitment to athletics, and over-simplifying that variety serves no one and does not lead to useful solutions.
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Post by reader on May 18, 2021 14:33:28 GMT -5
You lost me there. There are a lot of public D3 schools and they are not winning a disproportionate number of titles any more than the large endowment schools complained about above. In fact plenty of them are getting kicked around by their smaller, more expensive, non-scholarship private D3 peers. And that has more to do with the strength of the programs, resource allocation choices made by administrations, and the basic appeal of the schools than it does with the charter. What purpose is served by moving a slightly above average team beating weak schools into a conference where they will get killed by scholarship athletes? Where's the improvement when a 6-2 UW-Superior stops playing a 0-11 Crown College and picks up teams from the Northern Sun? This would be imposed from outside on public schools that do not control their own finances, so it's unlikely they'll have any more resources to contend with the jump in quality. Or are you just declaring the WIAC a D2 conference the prevent them from any post-season success whatsoever? Who is being protected here? Crown is not going to get better, you'll just have fewer D3 teams of lower quality, more D2 teams of lower quality, and I guess some warm sense of accomplishment for effecting change? Change is not progress. Just being public isn't the thing alone. There are public schools that look like DIII liberal arts colleges.
(Granted, there are DIII private universities that look like all other levels, and with a wide variety of aspirations)
The UW campuses look and feel every bit as much like DII schools in the Northern Sun, other than scholarships. They should not be in the same division, competing for the same national titles, as MIAC schools.
That's really the extent of what I care about. There perhaps are other situations around the country that are fairly analogous. But even if there aren't ... I still want UW's out.
Actually most of the WIAC looks a lot better than some of the Northern Sun campuses: the gas station next to Concordia-STP is a significant part of the campus amenities. But what you give up in ambiance you can make up for in Golden Bear scholarship money. And that's a huge difference. I'm not sure why you're so upset by the D3 level played in WI, but they don't have the cash to fund scholarships the way the existing D2 schools do, so you'd just be creating another terrible D2 conference at the expense of taking out a nice group of D3 schools. Moving them to D2 without money would definitely clean up that recruiting advantage though: "Come to UW-Stout, pay your own way and be someone's non-conference record building morsel."
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Post by n00b on May 18, 2021 14:40:39 GMT -5
You lost me there. There are a lot of public D3 schools and they are not winning a disproportionate number of titles any more than the large endowment schools complained about above. In fact plenty of them are getting kicked around by their smaller, more expensive, non-scholarship private D3 peers. And that has more to do with the strength of the programs, resource allocation choices made by administrations, and the basic appeal of the schools than it does with the charter. What purpose is served by moving a slightly above average team beating weak schools into a conference where they will get killed by scholarship athletes? Where's the improvement when a 6-2 UW-Superior stops playing a 0-11 Crown College and picks up teams from the Northern Sun? This would be imposed from outside on public schools that do not control their own finances, so it's unlikely they'll have any more resources to contend with the jump in quality. Or are you just declaring the WIAC a D2 conference the prevent them from any post-season success whatsoever? Who is being protected here? Crown is not going to get better, you'll just have fewer D3 teams of lower quality, more D2 teams of lower quality, and I guess some warm sense of accomplishment for effecting change? Change is not progress. Just being public isn't the thing alone. There are public schools that look like DIII liberal arts colleges.
(Granted, there are DIII private universities that look like all other levels, and with a wide variety of aspirations) The UW campuses look and feel every bit as much like DII schools in the Northern Sun, other than scholarships. They should not be in the same division, competing for the same national titles, as MIAC schools. That's really the extent of what I care about. There perhaps are other situations around the country that are fairly analogous. But even if there aren't ... I still want UW's out.
So? Davidson, a liberal arts college with less that 2,000 students competes in the same division as NC State with over 35,000 students. It's about athletics resources and scholarship dollars. Not school type.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2021 15:06:25 GMT -5
It should solely be about school type, for DIII. Is my argument.
No one cares about DII. No great tragedy to anyone involved if WIAC teams don't win a bunch of national titles in DII. They don't belong in DIII, by school type.
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Post by volleydadtx on May 19, 2021 7:14:25 GMT -5
My goodness it's hard to even know where to begin. But I'll start with, there are VERY few major infractions in D3 on the website you provided. Hasn't even been one recorded since 2016. There aren't that many D3 programs in Texas? Hmmm. Trinity, Southwestern, Hardin-Simmons, Mary Hardin-Baylor, Sul Ross State, Austin College, UT Dallas, University of Dallas, LeTourneau, East Texas Baptist, Howard Payne, St. Thomas, Schreiner, Texas Lutheran. Which state has more? There are a number of these programs that would easily compete in D2 and even D1. Trinity, as an example, has 3680 Pablo Ranking points in 2019. That's ahead of approximately 40 D1 programs, and 207 D2 programs. Sort the data: two in 2020, three in 2019, another in 2018, three more in 2017, and five in 2016. So 14 D3 schools in Texas, a state with 30m population? Look east and north: MN (pop 5.7m) has 20, WI (pop 5.9m) has 25, I lost count twice in PA, NY is around 50, heck Maine has 11. There's a cool interactive map here www.ncaa.org/about/resources/research/ncaa-member-schoolsI'm from MN and am watching St Thomas make the very jump you're describing, and looking at the estimated mountain of money they're going to have to raise to do this really illustrates how few schools can even contemplate it. You need to upgrade most facilities and put millions into scholarships and then commit to that budget for years going forward. Contrast that, or Trinity's $1.2bn endowment, with the many D3 schools cutting budgets, dropping programs and working hard just to not close. The D3 world is a broad canvas with many types of schools that only share a lack of large financial commitment to athletics, and over-simplifying that variety serves no one and does not lead to useful solutions. My point was that there are a number of D3 programs that can easily compete against D2 programs and even a few dozen D1s. That's fact, and that's all.
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