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Post by southbay11 on Jun 30, 2021 21:22:46 GMT -5
Additionally, (maybe southbay11 can confirm this), but for the Atlanta event, the organization Rally VB that’s hosting put together a mini series of tournaments where the top 4 players will earn bids straight into the 2nd day of the quali, so top 22 not 24 players earn bids by avp points. This info is only available on the Rally VB website, not posted anywhere by avp. Also, a lot of these tourneys are retroactively posted on avp america as they occur, so the only way to get into these events is/was to know this series was happening via this random organization’s website. Frankly this seems absolutely heinous to me, and I can’t believe the AVP is allowing this to occur. rallyvb.com/avp-beach-tournaments-adult/First I’ve heard of it. Listen, there is so much that makes no sense it’s beyond me. The whole system is goofy. You have players that haven’t played at all in two years holding more points than players they have played and had success. Why 77 freaking teams? Isn’t that what AVP Next is for? Weed out beginners? It’s just goofy
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Post by beavis on Jul 1, 2021 0:28:54 GMT -5
Sonofdogman - gotcha! We have never actually sprung for a box - have only shared with others a few times back when they were much more affordable. If you've never been to Chicago, its kinda fun to walk back and forth on Quali Thursday, and on the first day of the main draw Friday, between Oak Street Beach and North Avenue Beach (where there will be many more courts set up). We are at three guys going so will likely get 2 rooms at the Millennium Knickerbocker, which is a short walk away. If you want to share a room with one of us, let me know and we'll see if we can set it up! . That's where I stayed two years ago. That was a great spot! Thanks, Butteryhands! Yes, we have stayed there several times, and it is a nice, short walk to Oak Street beach, and there are alot of good restaurants nearby!
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Post by stephenasinjin on Jul 1, 2021 8:01:13 GMT -5
Additionally, (maybe southbay11 can confirm this), but for the Atlanta event, the organization Rally VB that’s hosting put together a mini series of tournaments where the top 4 players will earn bids straight into the 2nd day of the quali, so top 22 not 24 players earn bids by avp points. This info is only available on the Rally VB website, not posted anywhere by avp. Also, a lot of these tourneys are retroactively posted on avp america as they occur, so the only way to get into these events is/was to know this series was happening via this random organization’s website. Frankly this seems absolutely heinous to me, and I can’t believe the AVP is allowing this to occur. rallyvb.com/avp-beach-tournaments-adult/First I’ve heard of it. Listen, there is so much that makes no sense it’s beyond me. The whole system is goofy. You have players that haven’t played at all in two years holding more points than players they have played and had success. Why 77 freaking teams? Isn’t that what AVP Next is for? Weed out beginners? It’s just goofy The points thing is because they chose for the champions cup to not count which based on the info at the time was probably the correct decision, and it wouldn’t make sense to go in and retroactively change it. Counting points from those events would create an unjust artificial barrier between teams that got to compete vs. teams that just missed the cutoff. Before covid the points system worked very well, unfortunately with all of the amateur and avpnext events going on, and the point inflation that occurs every year, the top of these avpnext events have caught up points wise to the main draw points at smaller events granted in 2019. As for the quali, id say that they should stick to this 2 day format granting the “avpnext caliber” teams that auto bid into day 2 of the quali, and with a smaller pool of teams on day 2, giving them a better opportunity to be ready to compete in the main draw. Capping qualifiers locks out players based on previous points gained from the qualifiers. The ability to earn professional level points needs to remain accessible to everyone otherwise you just make it unreasonably difficult for someone to break onto the pro tour, particularly with many pros traveling to play avpnexts.
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Post by midwestbeachbum on Jul 1, 2021 10:23:57 GMT -5
First I’ve heard of it. Listen, there is so much that makes no sense it’s beyond me. The whole system is goofy. You have players that haven’t played at all in two years holding more points than players they have played and had success. Why 77 freaking teams? Isn’t that what AVP Next is for? Weed out beginners? It’s just goofy The points thing is because they chose for the champions cup to not count which based on the info at the time was probably the correct decision, and it wouldn’t make sense to go in and retroactively change it. Counting points from those events would create an unjust artificial barrier between teams that got to compete vs. teams that just missed the cutoff. Before covid the points system worked very well, unfortunately with all of the amateur and avpnext events going on, and the point inflation that occurs every year, the top of these avpnext events have caught up points wise to the main draw points at smaller events granted in 2019. As for the quali, id say that they should stick to this 2 day format granting the “avpnext caliber” teams that auto bid into day 2 of the quali, and with a smaller pool of teams on day 2, giving them a better opportunity to be ready to compete in the main draw. Capping qualifiers locks out players based on previous points gained from the qualifiers. The ability to earn professional level points needs to remain accessible to everyone otherwise you just make it unreasonably difficult for someone to break onto the pro tour, particularly with many pros traveling to play avpnexts. This is a good point about making sure everybody can play. Gotta make sure there is a fair shot to earn that $750 bucks for a T-13th main draw finish as a pro athlete
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Post by rainmaker on Jul 1, 2021 12:50:22 GMT -5
funny
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Post by moderndaycoach on Jul 1, 2021 14:06:04 GMT -5
The points thing is because they chose for the champions cup to not count which based on the info at the time was probably the correct decision, and it wouldn’t make sense to go in and retroactively change it. Counting points from those events would create an unjust artificial barrier between teams that got to compete vs. teams that just missed the cutoff. Before covid the points system worked very well, unfortunately with all of the amateur and avpnext events going on, and the point inflation that occurs every year, the top of these avpnext events have caught up points wise to the main draw points at smaller events granted in 2019. As for the quali, id say that they should stick to this 2 day format granting the “avpnext caliber” teams that auto bid into day 2 of the quali, and with a smaller pool of teams on day 2, giving them a better opportunity to be ready to compete in the main draw. Capping qualifiers locks out players based on previous points gained from the qualifiers. The ability to earn professional level points needs to remain accessible to everyone otherwise you just make it unreasonably difficult for someone to break onto the pro tour, particularly with many pros traveling to play avpnexts. This is a good point about making sure everybody can play. Gotta make sure there is a fair shot to earn that $750 bucks for a T-13th main draw finish as a pro athlete Colin Morikawa was recently on Pardon My Take and he talked about this notion of being a "Pro" Golfer, laughed and mentioned that you could call yourself a Pro Golfer right now and with all the different tours and how there is a loose amount of qualifications surrounding the claim- to the point if someone wants to call themselves a pro they could within a second, but if you are claiming your Profession as something, are you making enough at it for it to fund your life, bills, obligations? I feel like same thing goes for volleyball, you see these kids going overseas to play "pro" ball or others calling themselves a "pro" because they played in a Q. You have people coaching juniors that are making more money in 8 months as a side job than some of these kids going overseas, or playing in beach tourneys and AVP Q's, will make in an entire "season".
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Post by acemand23 on Jul 1, 2021 15:27:38 GMT -5
IMO, to be considered a "Pro" at a sport, means someone was willing to pay you to play. This is different than winning a contest. Sports are entertainment. I would not call anyone who wins at the "Amazing Race" and actress or actor, but they did win money and were on TV.
We would typically consider teams that were main draw and in the money technically paid... but those were spots earned, and I would say that if you are working your way in from the Q, then you are almost there, but not until you are entered main draw....
We need a better system for our sport with actual funding/wages, so then we can actually call players who get paid to play, "Pros".
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Post by moderndaycoach on Jul 1, 2021 16:20:48 GMT -5
IMO, to be considered a "Pro" at a sport, means someone was willing to pay you to play. This is different than winning a contest. Sports are entertainment. I would not call anyone who wins at the "Amazing Race" and actress or actor, but they did win money and were on TV. We would typically consider teams that were main draw and in the money technically paid... but those were spots earned, and I would say that if you are working your way in from the Q, then you are almost there, but not until you are entered main draw.... We need a better system for our sport with actual funding/wages, so then we can actually call players who get paid to play, "Pros". Going on one TV show and winning money doesn't make you an actor, but going on multiple reality tv shows and competitions that have a bunch of other monetary ventures stemming from those programs, in theory make you a professional reality contestant. Being a consistent Top 10 player on the tour, or doing well enough between tourney finishes, sponsorship deals, clinic appearances or hosting, etc. to fund your life, bills, and obligations definitely qualifies you as a professional beach player. Beach volleyball is not relatable in the sense we think of NBA or NFL, unless the AVP is paying you a show up fee to enter the tourney. Participating in multiple AVP events and winning some money to cover your expenses for the weekend does not make you a professional beach player, it basically just means you are decent at a hobby you enjoy - even more people show up and go home with absolutely nothing. Does this board consider Timmy B a professional beach volleyball player, or is he just an above average athlete that has found success in this era of the tour?
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Post by midwestbeachbum on Jul 1, 2021 22:53:45 GMT -5
IMO, to be considered a "Pro" at a sport, means someone was willing to pay you to play. This is different than winning a contest. Sports are entertainment. I would not call anyone who wins at the "Amazing Race" and actress or actor, but they did win money and were on TV. We would typically consider teams that were main draw and in the money technically paid... but those were spots earned, and I would say that if you are working your way in from the Q, then you are almost there, but not until you are entered main draw.... We need a better system for our sport with actual funding/wages, so then we can actually call players who get paid to play, "Pros". The age old question is how do we make the sport of volleyball for the US better economically. Its tough when the AVP has been around for a long time and has failed at least 2 or 3 times. I would love to see the solution but I don't think it is easy. What is undeniable, there are some good crowds to be had. For example, Pottstown/Waupaca/etc have plenty of people watching and loving it. How do you find a way to convert that into regular fanfare/revenue.
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Post by bombsaway on Jul 2, 2021 10:20:49 GMT -5
I think the semantics of defining the word "professional" is pointless. Some people say anyone making money doing something is allowed to call it a profession and others say it's not until you reach the upper echelon and it's the only thing you do in life that you can call it your profession.... there is no correct answer. The bigger question is the one posed by midwestbeachbum.... how do we capture people's interest and turn that into sponsorship and viewers
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Post by ebes1099 on Jul 2, 2021 11:38:22 GMT -5
There's always this debate here about who's allowed to call themselves a "pro" and seems to be some irritability by posters here about the lower level Q players who like to say they are a "pro". I know it's a message board and the whole point of this is for debate and people sharing their opinions, but who really cares if someone calls themselves a pro and gets beat in the first round in every Q. Let the person call themselves a pro if they want to, it really doesn't have any impact on the rest of us. I don't think any of us are measuring ourselves by those players and determining that since they deemed themselves a pro it moves the rest of us down a notch.
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Post by andlime on Jul 2, 2021 18:54:02 GMT -5
Here would be my definitions: Semi-pro: You make enough money from winnings to cover all expenses. Basically, you're "in the green". Pro: Volleyball is your only job, and you don't need another one
Agreed that it probably doesn't matter that much
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Post by volleyballjim on Jul 2, 2021 19:38:05 GMT -5
Tim Bomgren is a professional Beach Volleyball player. If he isn't NOBODY is . . . you cannot constrain players due to "fiscal paradigms" . . . AVP hasn't been profitable since 1998, so should we start checking people off the lists? Were the pro baseball players, who were paid WAY below regular wages, not professional players? I know this argument could be assailed from many directions and poked holes in with many "examples", but let me restate: Tim Bomgren is a beach professional.
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Post by KAP on Jul 6, 2021 13:39:33 GMT -5
We all have our own idea of what being a "professional" is, and the lines get blurry in more individualistic sports. For indoor volleyball, it's a pretty easy delineation. Are you or have you recently been under contract to play for a professional club? If yes, you are a professional. With beach there aren't pro beach clubs to sign a contract with to be a part of their team. There is USAV, and if you are getting a monthly stipend, that seems like a pretty clear indicator that you are a pro. But what about all the rest of the top teams?
In individual sports, like golf and tennis, there is a lot more money on the line, so more athletes are making a living off prize money only. There is also a whole other tier of professionals in those sports who are paid to teach the game. The terms "golf pro" and "tennis pro" are different from "pro golfer" or "professional tennis player". I think most AVP players probably fall more into that "beach volleyball pro" category, where they teaching some lessons while playing as many domestic tournaments as they can. And there is no shame in that! There is more money now in coaching juniors than there is in winning tournaments, especially with COVID shutting down so many events. And with the NCAA taking off and more schools starting programs, the market for coaching is going to keep growing. Parents want their girls going to college on a scholarship, and they are willing to pay for good coaching to get them there.
All this isn't a take away at all from those players who have to hustle to make ends meet! There is so little room at the top, you have to have something on the side to fill in the gaps. Even guys like Phil and Hyden, who have been at the top of this game for decades have started their own academies to build something for them to continue to make money off of after they retire from playing. Sponsorship money has gone way down, too, and a lot of players are going the influencer route where social media is essentially their full-time job. Ultimately, if someone is competing in professional events, I don't have a problem calling them a professional.
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Post by haze on Jul 6, 2021 19:16:30 GMT -5
Tim Bomgren is a professional Beach Volleyball player. If he isn't NOBODY is . . . you cannot constrain players due to "fiscal paradigms" . . . AVP hasn't been profitable since 1998, so should we start checking people off the lists? Were the pro baseball players, who were paid WAY below regular wages, not professional players? I know this argument could be assailed from many directions and poked holes in with many "examples", but let me restate: Tim Bomgren is a beach professional. Bomgren is a Professional Beach player that has another profession priority over Beach Volleyball. Is that really the definition of a professional? Maybe it is......
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