bluepenquin
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4-Time VolleyTalk Poster of the Year (2019, 2018, 2017, 2016), All-VolleyTalk 1st Team (2021, 2020, 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016)
Posts: 12,447
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Post by bluepenquin on Sept 29, 2021 7:17:00 GMT -5
What I think I know (which could be wrong).
When I started tracking individual games for RPI Futures around 2013/14 - there were a couple dozen matches a year between D1 and non D1. Over the rest of the decade - this number kept declining to where I believe the number was zero by 2019. I am guessing this trend started way before 2013. I believe I remember Bofa saying that the top DII teams were around #100-125 for D1. Maybe a bit better for the very best teams in DII. That leads me to believe that there were many more of these matches earlier in the decade and before to allow that kind of conclusion. The last 5 years couldn't have possibly allowed any kind of comparison.
This year - there have been 13 such matches, a reversal of history from the prior decade.
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Post by ciscokeed on Sept 29, 2021 10:41:33 GMT -5
There are a lot of accurate takes in this thread regarding the differences between the 3 different levels. I would like to add there have been a handful of D-2, teams through the years that would have been top 25 D-1. Hawaii Pacific had some amazing teams in the 90’s. Maybe top 10 talent. I believe they beat UH. Barry University in 2004 had a team that was certainly top 30 D-1. Brady at Concordia had some incredible teams during his streak of championships. So definitely some outliers through the years
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Post by karellen on Sept 29, 2021 10:54:47 GMT -5
I have DI mid-major experience and coached in DI national tournament and am very familiar with the NSIC and Brady's run at CSP....they were great teams and he and his teams have always impressed me.
None of those teams would have been top 25 at DI level.
There are a great number of leagues those teams, as well as Duluth's, SW Minnesota St, etc..., could have gone to and been competitive. There are very few they could have won outright. I doubt any of the great DII's would have been in top 25 and certainly not top 10.
There is a very real difference in levels. When I was at the DI school we were knocking on the door of being ranked in top 25. We went to Iowa to play a tournament. Our thought was getting a win vs Iowa would be huge for us. Even if they were at bottom of Big Ten, it was still a Big 10 school and a win would look great on our resume. They kicked our you-know-whats.
Admittedly, those gaps are getting smaller, but they do exist.
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D2 vs D1
Sept 29, 2021 11:30:33 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by kolohekeiki on Sept 29, 2021 11:30:33 GMT -5
There are a lot of accurate takes in this thread regarding the differences between the 3 different levels. I would like to add there have been a handful of D-2, teams through the years that would have been top 25 D-1. Hawaii Pacific had some amazing teams in the 90’s. Maybe top 10 talent. I believe they beat UH. Barry University in 2004 had a team that was certainly top 30 D-1. Brady at Concordia had some incredible teams during his streak of championships. So definitely some outliers through the years Don't remember HPU ever defeating the Wahine, but BYU-Hawai'i has beaten the Wahine in the late 90s during their DII championship runs led by Brazilian Arlete Silva. The Wahine also defeated BYU-Hawai'i in 98 in 5 sets,that season the Wahine were led by Heather Bown and still went 5 with BYU-Hawai'i.
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Post by mikegarrison on Sept 29, 2021 11:46:09 GMT -5
The same way pablo rates D1 teams against each other even if they don't directly have any common opponents. It looks at all the matches, so with enough data you can find that team A is say 10% better than team B, team B is about as good as team C, team D is 10% worse than team C, team E can be related to teams B and D, team F had a match with team E, etc. So it does it by looking at the matches between divisions. Which *do* still happen. Some D1 teams play a few D2 or NAIA teams. Some NAIA teams play some D2 or D3 teams. Etc. It's not a perfect calibration, but it's enough to get some read on it. Pablo is accurate inside d1 because there are lots of crossover matches between conferences. The numbers between levels are arbitrary. At some point there was a decision that assigned an average value to each level and that value normalizes each division. There is zero accuracy between levels because there is no crossover matches in the pablo calculation There is a different pablo calculation that DOES use the crossover data. That's the calculation I got my info from.
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Post by coahc21 on Sept 29, 2021 20:58:27 GMT -5
D1 > D2 > D3 is not accurate from a competitive standpoint....broad strokes purposes, yes, but each division has a range of competitiveness. A big misconception is that D1 and D2 = scholarships....untrue....Most programs are not fully funded, which means that, yes, they do have money available for athletic scholarships, whereas D3 has none, but very few full rides, or no full rides and that money is spread over partial scholarships. Often at the D2 level, the athletic scholarships might only cover the cost of books. There are far more unscholarshipped athletes at D1 and D2 than those getting full rides. Please correct me if I am wrong here, I know some stuff has changed recently. D1 programs are often larger, have better facilities, and D1 NCAA guidelines allow more time spent on their sport, so it does still attract top athletes regardless of scholarship, not to mention the cache of saying "I'm a D1 athlete" Johns Hopkins is the defending D3 natty champ...Not saying they would win the Big Ten, but I would guess they would be highly competitive in some D1 conferences. I know several D3 schools that compete against D1s and D2s frequently in exhibitions and do very well. St. Thomas just made the jump from D3 to D1 and are going through some "growing pains" let's call them. What is “most” (51%)of D1: 341 D1 volleyball: head count: money awarded counts as 1 scholarship: 12 scholarships: most (51%) do give a full scholarship (tuition, fee’s, room-board, and cost of attendance). The Ivy league D1: 8 schools: no athletic scholarships: they choose to compete D1 yet fund scholarships same as D3. Most of D2: (51%): 291 D2 volleyball : equivalency sport: meaning that you can divide a full scholarship up and award as many players money as you choose as long as total of the percentages does not exceed 8 full scholarships. This is done in dollars: each school must calculate total dollars a full scholarship and coach the divides dollars up to each player. This is often were we create misunderstanding. If i give each player 75% i can give 10 players 75% of a full: which in most cases gives:tuition, fees, and an amount for room, board and cost if attendance that keeps scholarship at 75%. But many call a “full” because they get; tuition, fess, room and board. But room/board/cost of attendance is reduced so they can accommodate the equivalency (8) total. All of D3: 431 schools do VB: no scholarships for athletics: all moneys are academic/need based. NAIA: 224 schools do VB : 8 scholarships: equivalency sport: see D2 above. NJCAA: Div1 : 86 vb schools: 14 scholarships and can pay transportation to and from school once per academic year. Div 2: 141 vb schools: 14 scholarships : no transportation Div 3: 93 vb schools: no scholarships CCCAA; 87 vb schools in California Comm. College Athletic Association: they do not participate with NJCAA: they run there own championship: no athletic only academic scholarships. NCCAA: national collegiate christian athletic association: two divisions Div 1, 29 vb schools and div 2, 24 vb schools. Not completely up to speed on scholarships but they so have but unsure of policies for same! In conclusion: most colleges are “fully funded” because of title IX, if they fund their men then they have to fund their women! And fully funded you can see a small outline of what that is above. This is an awesome breakdown...thank you!
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Post by sleepyjoe on Sept 29, 2021 22:24:47 GMT -5
Tons of bad information in this thread, some good too, but overall generally bad. Some people need to get a life and get out from behind the keyboard sometime. 🙄😬
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D2 vs D1
Sept 29, 2021 22:51:51 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by sleepyjoe on Sept 29, 2021 22:51:51 GMT -5
By the way, who the hell is this guy Pablo everyone keeps mentioning?
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Post by justahick on Sept 29, 2021 22:54:58 GMT -5
What is “most” (51%)of D1: 341 D1 volleyball: head count: money awarded counts as 1 scholarship: 12 scholarships: most (51%) do give a full scholarship (tuition, fee’s, room-board, and cost of attendance). The Ivy league D1: 8 schools: no athletic scholarships: they choose to compete D1 yet fund scholarships same as D3. Most of D2: (51%): 291 D2 volleyball : equivalency sport: meaning that you can divide a full scholarship up and award as many players money as you choose as long as total of the percentages does not exceed 8 full scholarships. This is done in dollars: each school must calculate total dollars a full scholarship and coach the divides dollars up to each player. This is often were we create misunderstanding. If i give each player 75% i can give 10 players 75% of a full: which in most cases gives:tuition, fees, and an amount for room, board and cost if attendance that keeps scholarship at 75%. But many call a “full” because they get; tuition, fess, room and board. But room/board/cost of attendance is reduced so they can accommodate the equivalency (8) total. All of D3: 431 schools do VB: no scholarships for athletics: all moneys are academic/need based. NAIA: 224 schools do VB : 8 scholarships: equivalency sport: see D2 above. NJCAA: Div1 : 86 vb schools: 14 scholarships and can pay transportation to and from school once per academic year. Div 2: 141 vb schools: 14 scholarships : no transportation Div 3: 93 vb schools: no scholarships CCCAA; 87 vb schools in California Comm. College Athletic Association: they do not participate with NJCAA: they run there own championship: no athletic only academic scholarships. NCCAA: national collegiate christian athletic association: two divisions Div 1, 29 vb schools and div 2, 24 vb schools. Not completely up to speed on scholarships but they so have but unsure of policies for same! In conclusion: most colleges are “fully funded” because of title IX, if they fund their men then they have to fund their women! And fully funded you can see a small outline of what that is above. This is an awesome breakdown...thank you! But there are so few crossover matches as to make the calculation almost a guess. Add to that, the matches have varying amounts of significance to the teams involved which even further distorts the figures.
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Post by BuckysHeat on Oct 4, 2021 21:56:33 GMT -5
Not true, Alcorn State has played Tougaloo and Dillard this year Those are 2 NAIA to be completely clear Now that RPI is out, it is easy to see who is playing non-D1 matches. There was one that is D1 vs D2 and three that are D1 vs D3 9/14 Ark Pine Bluff vs Lane College (D2) 9/7 and 9/21 Grambling vs Centenary (D3) 10/15 Miss Vall vs Rust College (D3) Certainly not as many as there used to be though
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Post by psuvbfan10 on Oct 4, 2021 22:04:05 GMT -5
By the way, who the hell is this guy Pablo everyone keeps mentioning? Can I say it first "Where's Pablo?" haha
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D2 vs D1
Oct 4, 2021 22:36:11 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Fight On! on Oct 4, 2021 22:36:11 GMT -5
Tons of bad information in this thread, some good too, but overall generally bad. Some people need to get a life and get out from behind the keyboard sometime. 🙄😬 Care to elaborate? Or just like to troll?
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Post by trollhunter on Oct 4, 2021 23:04:22 GMT -5
What I think I know (which could be wrong). When I started tracking individual games for RPI Futures around 2013/14 - there were a couple dozen matches a year between D1 and non D1. Over the rest of the decade - this number kept declining to where I believe the number was zero by 2019. I am guessing this trend started way before 2013. I believe I remember Bofa saying that the top DII teams were around #100-125 for D1. Maybe a bit better for the very best teams in DII. That leads me to believe that there were many more of these matches earlier in the decade and before to allow that kind of conclusion. The last 5 years couldn't have possibly allowed any kind of comparison. This year - there have been 13 such matches, a reversal of history from the prior decade. I've tracked this as well over time - you and Bofa's estimates of D2 strength are close - the very best D2 may have been top 100ish in DI. However, the number of crossover matches has been fairly steady. 2019 there were 30 matches between DI and non-DI - see the RPI archive at s3.amazonaws.com/ncaa/files/rpiarchive/archive/Team%20Rankings%20(all%20games)_122219_FINAL.pdf2018 there were 27 matches between DI and non-DI - per the archive 2017 there were 33 matches between DI and non-DI (but 24 of those matches were by just 2 DI schools) 2016 there were just 13 crossover matches. 2015 there were 36 crossover matches. My guess is that there are less matches between different divisions in 2020 and 2021 due to COVID. Coaches not wanting to risk exposure for matches that don't help RPI or may knock you out of a conference game. The number of crossover matches could increase next season, with D2 starting earlier (closer to DI start) due to it being a D2 Fall Festival year.
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Post by Not Me on Oct 5, 2021 13:19:42 GMT -5
What I think I know (which could be wrong). When I started tracking individual games for RPI Futures around 2013/14 - there were a couple dozen matches a year between D1 and non D1. Over the rest of the decade - this number kept declining to where I believe the number was zero by 2019. I am guessing this trend started way before 2013. I believe I remember Bofa saying that the top DII teams were around #100-125 for D1. Maybe a bit better for the very best teams in DII. That leads me to believe that there were many more of these matches earlier in the decade and before to allow that kind of conclusion. The last 5 years couldn't have possibly allowed any kind of comparison. This year - there have been 13 such matches, a reversal of history from the prior decade. I've tracked this as well over time - you and Bofa's estimates of D2 strength are close - the very best D2 may have been top 100ish in DI. However, the number of crossover matches has been fairly steady. 2019 there were 30 matches between DI and non-DI - see the RPI archive at s3.amazonaws.com/ncaa/files/rpiarchive/archive/Team%20Rankings%20(all%20games)_122219_FINAL.pdf2018 there were 27 matches between DI and non-DI - per the archive 2017 there were 33 matches between DI and non-DI (but 24 of those matches were by just 2 DI schools) 2016 there were just 13 crossover matches. 2015 there were 36 crossover matches. My guess is that there are less matches between different divisions in 2020 and 2021 due to COVID. Coaches not wanting to risk exposure for matches that don't help RPI or may knock you out of a conference game. The number of crossover matches could increase next season, with D2 starting earlier (closer to DI start) due to it being a D2 Fall Festival year. I would guess that most of those non D1 matches come from teams at the bottom 10% of the rankings. No team on a conference that has hopes of an at large bid would allow teams to play non-d1 teams.
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Post by n00b on Oct 5, 2021 18:34:45 GMT -5
I've tracked this as well over time - you and Bofa's estimates of D2 strength are close - the very best D2 may have been top 100ish in DI. However, the number of crossover matches has been fairly steady. 2019 there were 30 matches between DI and non-DI - see the RPI archive at s3.amazonaws.com/ncaa/files/rpiarchive/archive/Team%20Rankings%20(all%20games)_122219_FINAL.pdf2018 there were 27 matches between DI and non-DI - per the archive 2017 there were 33 matches between DI and non-DI (but 24 of those matches were by just 2 DI schools) 2016 there were just 13 crossover matches. 2015 there were 36 crossover matches. My guess is that there are less matches between different divisions in 2020 and 2021 due to COVID. Coaches not wanting to risk exposure for matches that don't help RPI or may knock you out of a conference game. The number of crossover matches could increase next season, with D2 starting earlier (closer to DI start) due to it being a D2 Fall Festival year. I would guess that most of those non D1 matches come from teams at the bottom 10% of the rankings. No team on a conference that has hopes of an at large bid would allow teams to play non-d1 teams. Assuming they win, there’s no real downside to playing a D2 team. In fact, it would be MUCH better to schedule a D2 (that doesn’t count at all) than a D1 with a terrible record who will hurt your SOS. I’m imagining a team like Mississippi State. If they really want to add a home game, it would be much better to schedule a local D2 than to schedule Alcorn State.
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