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Post by c4ndlelight on Mar 18, 2023 17:01:12 GMT -5
LOL. That's the way *I* feel about it, but I'm not at all sure that's the way the UW administration feels about it. It's a "money grab" that subjects "Olympic" sports' student-athletes to unreasonable travel demands that can put their mental/physical health and academic performance at risk. If the B1G should invite Washington and Oregon to join the Big 18 (there is absolutely no indication they will), I would hope that the schools' administrations would balance money to be gained against student-athletes' quality of life concerns, and not simply sell off the latter for "filthy lucre". I think UW's administration would, but have some doubts about Oregon's... LOL. Checking in from the UW-Valles Marineris campus.
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Post by InfoBot on Mar 21, 2023 11:34:01 GMT -5
The Utah president echoing Arizona's and Arizona State's sentiments that they (along with Colorado) are not looking to leave the PAC.
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Mar 21, 2023 16:17:29 GMT -5
The Utah president echoing Arizona's and Arizona State's sentiments that they (along with Colorado) are not looking to leave the PAC. Technically he is saying that there is solidarity in the PAC 12, the media rights deal may end up taking a long time, and expansion could happen before or after a media rights deal. This dovetails with the NY Post reporting that if Apple is still involved with the PAC (and they probably are) - they are likely to take their time. The ESPN offer to the P12 for B12 money is off the table for now. And this may now drag out farther than ~ April 15.
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Post by brooselee on Mar 21, 2023 16:36:17 GMT -5
This is getting ridiculous. If they can’t come to terms, it looks like they are probably far apart.
I’m sure conference discussed how much with the current 10 teams. They also obviously discussed the situation with possible expansion. Yet there is no sign of coming to an agreement. I thought the AZ AD Robbins hinted that a deal could be reach this week. Now, it doesn’t look like it at all.
Again….of course, teams are saying they ARE NOT looking to leave. Leave for where? Nobody has offered them an invite yet. A more reassuring statement for the PAC 12 is for the Utah AD to say that they WILL NOT leave.
The AD and administrators are choosing their words carefully so not to box themselves into a corner. I have very little doubt if any of the PAC12 schools get an invite, they will bail. The PAC 12+conference, by many, is hanging in the balance and a chance to move to a more stable conference is a big appeal to every single school in the PAC 12.
36-50 million dollars a year speaks for itself.
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Post by ay2013 on Mar 21, 2023 16:49:54 GMT -5
LOL. That's the way *I* feel about it, but I'm not at all sure that's the way the UW administration feels about it. It's a "money grab" that subjects "Olympic" sports' student-athletes to unreasonable travel demands that can put their mental/physical health and academic performance at risk. If the B1G should invite Washington and Oregon to join the Big 18 (there is absolutely no indication they will), I would hope that the schools' administrations would balance money to be gained against student-athletes' quality of life concerns, and not simply sell off the latter for "filthy lucre". I think UW's administration would, but have some doubts about Oregon's... Frankly, if we are heading toward mega conferences anyway, I think it makes sense to separate the "popular national sports" that drive eyes and revenue (football, basketball, baseball, and I'd include womens volleyball) from the less popular sports that could continue to be regionally focused re competition. I don't really see a reason why a program like USC and Ohio State couldn't play it's entire football schedule on a national footprint in the Big 10 conference and for USC to continue to play water polo and soccer primarily out west and Ohio State play hockey and wrestling primarily in the midwest. Nobody actually cares who may win a tennis match between Ohio State and USC, so why waste time and money forcing these athletes to play each other every year?
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Post by InfoBot on Mar 21, 2023 22:12:46 GMT -5
Again….of course, teams are saying they ARE NOT looking to leave. Leave for where? Nobody has offered them an invite yet. A more reassuring statement for the PAC 12 is for the Utah AD to say that they WILL NOT leave. The Big 12 has actually not been shy about stating their interest in Arizona, Arizona State, Colorado and Utah.
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Post by vbnerd on Mar 22, 2023 10:48:40 GMT -5
LOL. That's the way *I* feel about it, but I'm not at all sure that's the way the UW administration feels about it. It's a "money grab" that subjects "Olympic" sports' student-athletes to unreasonable travel demands that can put their mental/physical health and academic performance at risk. If the B1G should invite Washington and Oregon to join the Big 18 (there is absolutely no indication they will), I would hope that the schools' administrations would balance money to be gained against student-athletes' quality of life concerns, and not simply sell off the latter for "filthy lucre". I think UW's administration would, but have some doubts about Oregon's... I've been asking people about this since Miami left the Big East. Stewart Mandel mentioned it last week on The Athletic's football podcast and it might be the first time I've heard it in a mainstream media outlet. If D3 Johns Hopkins can join the Big 10 for Lacrosse, and Arkansas Little Rock can wrestle in the Pac 12 and Air Force can play lacrosse in the ASUN... why can't football teams leave without the rest of their department. In nearly 20 years, here's what I got... I had a Big 10 person tell me that the volleyball and soccer players want to play the same rivals as the football team. If you go to USC, no matter what sport it is, UCLA is a big game. Ohio State Michigan, Duke-Carolina, etc. But all of those have geographical components to them that they can still play every year in every sport. Nobody is going to be upset in we lose Miami-Louisville or Rutgers-Nebraska in anything. I've heard it hypothesized that there could be a title IX component if the Michigan football team is playing a Big 10 schedule while the soccer team plays a MAC type schedule. I don't know but I feel like Title IX is going to have to be updated or clarified with coming changes to college sports. And the other argument is that it isn't fair if Ohio State volleyball is using their football warchest to compete in the Horizon League. I still think for quality of life, for travel costs, for environmental impact, etc, it should get more study than it seems like it gets.
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Post by vbcoltrane on Mar 22, 2023 11:38:42 GMT -5
It's a "money grab" that subjects "Olympic" sports' student-athletes to unreasonable travel demands that can put their mental/physical health and academic performance at risk. If the B1G should invite Washington and Oregon to join the Big 18 (there is absolutely no indication they will), I would hope that the schools' administrations would balance money to be gained against student-athletes' quality of life concerns, and not simply sell off the latter for "filthy lucre". I think UW's administration would, but have some doubts about Oregon's... I've been asking people about this since Miami left the Big East. Stewart Mandel mentioned it last week on The Athletic's football podcast and it might be the first time I've heard it in a mainstream media outlet. If D3 Johns Hopkins can join the Big 10 for Lacrosse, and Arkansas Little Rock can wrestle in the Pac 12 and Air Force can play lacrosse in the ASUN... why can't football teams leave without the rest of their department. In nearly 20 years, here's what I got... I had a Big 10 person tell me that the volleyball and soccer players want to play the same rivals as the football team. If you go to USC, no matter what sport it is, UCLA is a big game. Ohio State Michigan, Duke-Carolina, etc. But all of those have geographical components to them that they can still play every year in every sport. Nobody is going to be upset in we lose Miami-Louisville or Rutgers-Nebraska in anything. I've heard it hypothesized that there could be a title IX component if the Michigan football team is playing a Big 10 schedule while the soccer team plays a MAC type schedule. I don't know but I feel like Title IX is going to have to be updated or clarified with coming changes to college sports. And the other argument is that it isn't fair if Ohio State volleyball is using their football warchest to compete in the Horizon League. I still think for quality of life, for travel costs, for environmental impact, etc, it should get more study than it seems like it gets. Johns Hopkins lacrosse is the only D1 sport at an otherwise D3 school - which, I believe, isn't allowed anymore. Schools that have that setup with a solitary DI program got grandfathered in and allowed to continue when all other sports are D3. So, JH lacrosse being in a different conference than its other sports is necessitated by the fact that its conference for other sports is D3. This is a different situation than schools where every sport is D1 and therefore can be in the same conference. Also different is situations where a D1 school has a few sports in a different conference because its "main" conference doesn't sponsor a particular sport. None of this is to say that splitting a schools' sports programs between multiple conferences even when they could all be in the same conference is necessarily a bad thing.
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Post by n00b on Mar 22, 2023 11:45:30 GMT -5
It's a "money grab" that subjects "Olympic" sports' student-athletes to unreasonable travel demands that can put their mental/physical health and academic performance at risk. If the B1G should invite Washington and Oregon to join the Big 18 (there is absolutely no indication they will), I would hope that the schools' administrations would balance money to be gained against student-athletes' quality of life concerns, and not simply sell off the latter for "filthy lucre". I think UW's administration would, but have some doubts about Oregon's... Frankly, if we are heading toward mega conferences anyway, I think it makes sense to separate the "popular national sports" that drive eyes and revenue (football, basketball, baseball, and I'd include womens volleyball) from the less popular sports that could continue to be regionally focused re competition. I don't really see a reason why a program like USC and Ohio State couldn't play it's entire football schedule on a national footprint in the Big 10 conference and for USC to continue to play water polo and soccer primarily out west and Ohio State play hockey and wrestling primarily in the midwest. Nobody actually cares who may win a tennis match between Ohio State and USC, so why waste time and money forcing these athletes to play each other every year? This could happen, but it would likely need to be in the form of sport-specific conferences like men's volleyball has. I can't imagine the Pac-12 allowing USC and UCLA to keep their Olympic sports in the conference after their football and basketball teams bailed.
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Post by stevehorn on Mar 22, 2023 12:41:43 GMT -5
It's a "money grab" that subjects "Olympic" sports' student-athletes to unreasonable travel demands that can put their mental/physical health and academic performance at risk. If the B1G should invite Washington and Oregon to join the Big 18 (there is absolutely no indication they will), I would hope that the schools' administrations would balance money to be gained against student-athletes' quality of life concerns, and not simply sell off the latter for "filthy lucre". I think UW's administration would, but have some doubts about Oregon's... I've been asking people about this since Miami left the Big East. Stewart Mandel mentioned it last week on The Athletic's football podcast and it might be the first time I've heard it in a mainstream media outlet. If D3 Johns Hopkins can join the Big 10 for Lacrosse, and Arkansas Little Rock can wrestle in the Pac 12 and Air Force can play lacrosse in the ASUN... why can't football teams leave without the rest of their department. In nearly 20 years, here's what I got... I had a Big 10 person tell me that the volleyball and soccer players want to play the same rivals as the football team. If you go to USC, no matter what sport it is, UCLA is a big game. Ohio State Michigan, Duke-Carolina, etc. But all of those have geographical components to them that they can still play every year in every sport. Nobody is going to be upset in we lose Miami-Louisville or Rutgers-Nebraska in anything. I've heard it hypothesized that there could be a title IX component if the Michigan football team is playing a Big 10 schedule while the soccer team plays a MAC type schedule. I don't know but I feel like Title IX is going to have to be updated or clarified with coming changes to college sports. And the other argument is that it isn't fair if Ohio State volleyball is using their football warchest to compete in the Horizon League. I still think for quality of life, for travel costs, for environmental impact, etc, it should get more study than it seems like it gets. As others have posted, your examples are not cases of travel or wanting to play a sport in a different conference, but oddities generally where your conference doesn't sponsor a championship for a sport or a smaller school wanting to play at a higher level. As an example, two sports at Texas will be participating in a different conference when we join the SEC. The first is our new beach volleyball team. Currently neither the SEC or Big 12 sponsors beach volleyball so that team will be in an entirely different conference. The 2nd team is rowing. Currently the Big 12 sponsors rowing, but the SEC does not. In fact a handful of SEC teams are currently members of the Big 12 in rowing. When we join the SEC, I'm assuming we will stay in the Big 12 for rowing unless the SEC adds rowing to the sports it sponsors (same for beach volleyball). If you look at the members of conferences in sports like these, many of them have multiple members that play the majority of sports in a different conference. Looking at your Arkansas-Little Rock wrestling example, the Pac 12 wrestling memberships appears to include four Pac-12 schools, Arkansas Little Rock, Cal-Poly, and CSU-Bakersfield. I think I could see Title IX problems for your example (Michigan playing soccer in the MAC). There is no practical reason to do this (significant reduction of travel, higher level of play, etc). It likely would be viewed as a downgrade in competition and perhaps perceived as a reduction in "opportunties" for the soccer team. I also wouldn't expect it to happen as there usually is an agreement between conferences and schools that schools will play in that conference in all sports that the conference sponsors. Some exceptions (typically lower level schools playing up in a particular sport), but these are typically covered by an agreement between the conference and the school.
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Post by mikegarrison on Mar 22, 2023 13:26:49 GMT -5
Schools that have that setup with a solitary DI program got grandfathered in and allowed to continue when all other sports are D3. Did they change that rule? It used to be that a D3 school could pick one sport to compete in as D1 -- but following D3 scholarship rules. The idea was mainly to allow them to play a D1 schedule and have D1 practice rules. At MIT that sport used to be rowing.
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Post by stevehorn on Mar 22, 2023 13:37:35 GMT -5
Schools that have that setup with a solitary DI program got grandfathered in and allowed to continue when all other sports are D3. Did they change that rule? It used to be that a D3 school could pick one sport to compete in as D1 -- but following D3 scholarship rules. The idea was mainly to allow them to play a D1 schedule and have D1 practice rules. At MIT that sport used to be rowing. A search indicates that a D3 school can have 1 men's and 1 women's sport compete in D1 and still remain D3. However didn't see anything that indicated whether schools have been grandfathered or not. Did see the mention of rowing for MIT. Appears the most common use is for hockey.
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Post by hgc159 on Mar 22, 2023 14:51:25 GMT -5
I've been asking people about this since Miami left the Big East. Stewart Mandel mentioned it last week on The Athletic's football podcast and it might be the first time I've heard it in a mainstream media outlet. If D3 Johns Hopkins can join the Big 10 for Lacrosse, and Arkansas Little Rock can wrestle in the Pac 12 and Air Force can play lacrosse in the ASUN... why can't football teams leave without the rest of their department. In nearly 20 years, here's what I got... I had a Big 10 person tell me that the volleyball and soccer players want to play the same rivals as the football team. If you go to USC, no matter what sport it is, UCLA is a big game. Ohio State Michigan, Duke-Carolina, etc. But all of those have geographical components to them that they can still play every year in every sport. Nobody is going to be upset in we lose Miami-Louisville or Rutgers-Nebraska in anything. I've heard it hypothesized that there could be a title IX component if the Michigan football team is playing a Big 10 schedule while the soccer team plays a MAC type schedule. I don't know but I feel like Title IX is going to have to be updated or clarified with coming changes to college sports. And the other argument is that it isn't fair if Ohio State volleyball is using their football warchest to compete in the Horizon League. I still think for quality of life, for travel costs, for environmental impact, etc, it should get more study than it seems like it gets. As others have posted, your examples are not cases of travel or wanting to play a sport in a different conference, but oddities generally where your conference doesn't sponsor a championship for a sport or a smaller school wanting to play at a higher level. As an example, two sports at Texas will be participating in a different conference when we join the SEC. The first is our new beach volleyball team. Currently neither the SEC or Big 12 sponsors beach volleyball so that team will be in an entirely different conference. The 2nd team is rowing. Currently the Big 12 sponsors rowing, but the SEC does not. In fact a handful of SEC teams are currently members of the Big 12 in rowing. When we join the SEC, I'm assuming we will stay in the Big 12 for rowing unless the SEC adds rowing to the sports it sponsors (same for beach volleyball). If you look at the members of conferences in sports like these, many of them have multiple members that play the majority of sports in a different conference. Looking at your Arkansas-Little Rock wrestling example, the Pac 12 wrestling memberships appears to include four Pac-12 schools, Arkansas Little Rock, Cal-Poly, and CSU-Bakersfield. I think I could see Title IX problems for your example (Michigan playing soccer in the MAC). There is no practical reason to do this (significant reduction of travel, higher level of play, etc). It likely would be viewed as a downgrade in competition and perhaps perceived as a reduction in "opportunties" for the soccer team. I also wouldn't expect it to happen as there usually is an agreement between conferences and schools that schools will play in that conference in all sports that the conference sponsors. Some exceptions (typically lower level schools playing up in a particular sport), but these are typically covered by an agreement between the conference and the school. Just to expand on those listed above: The Big 12 already has a number of affiliate members: Air Force Academy - Wrestling University of Alabama - Women's rowing California Baptist University - Wrestling University of Denver - Women's gymnastics California State University, Fresno - Equestrian University of Missouri - Wrestling University of Northern Colorado - Wrestling University of Northern Iowa - Wrestling North Dakota State University - Wrestling South Dakota State University - Wrestling University of Tennessee - Women's rowing Utah Valley University - Wrestling University of Wyoming - Wrestling
And if the PAC 12 disbands, what will happen to their affiliate members:
California Polytechnic State University San Luis Obispo - Wrestling California State University, Bakersfield - Wrestling University of Arkansas at Little Rock Little Rock - Wrestling San Diego State University - Men's soccer
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Post by n00b on Mar 22, 2023 15:14:13 GMT -5
Schools that have that setup with a solitary DI program got grandfathered in and allowed to continue when all other sports are D3. Did they change that rule? It used to be that a D3 school could pick one sport to compete in as D1 -- but following D3 scholarship rules. The idea was mainly to allow them to play a D1 schedule and have D1 practice rules. At MIT that sport used to be rowing. I had the same question. Looks like they stopped allowing new instances of it in 2011. From the Division 1 manual: 20.6.1 Multidivision Classification. A member of Division II or Division III may have a sport classified in Division I, provided the sport was so classified during the 2010-11 academic year. Such a classification shall continue until the institution fails to conduct the sport in Division I in any subsequent academic year.
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Post by bigjohn043 on Mar 22, 2023 16:00:11 GMT -5
Did they change that rule? It used to be that a D3 school could pick one sport to compete in as D1 -- but following D3 scholarship rules. The idea was mainly to allow them to play a D1 schedule and have D1 practice rules. At MIT that sport used to be rowing. I had the same question. Looks like they stopped allowing new instances of it in 2011. From the Division 1 manual: 20.6.1 Multidivision Classification. A member of Division II or Division III may have a sport classified in Division I, provided the sport was so classified during the 2010-11 academic year. Such a classification shall continue until the institution fails to conduct the sport in Division I in any subsequent academic year.And BTW these schools operate the one D1 sport with full scholarships.....
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