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Post by wmiv1895 on May 19, 2022 15:38:20 GMT -5
Wow! Never thought I’d see the name Frank Solich pop up in the Steve Aird discussion….LOL! I’m also grossed out by the toenail fungus add that keeps appearing in the thread when I’m using my phone. Don’t recall ever searching for that type of medication.
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Post by gibbyb1 on May 19, 2022 15:39:13 GMT -5
I think I’m short the message you’re trying to relay is that until these jobs aren’t seen as “stepping stones”, the programs will continue to struggle to remain competitive (if they can even get there) because they will continue to have coaching turnover whether the last hire is successful (which means ‘promotion’ to something bigger and better) or not successful. (fired or contract not renewed.) These programs need to make it so their coaches don’t want to leave for something bigger and better; and I think that’s what Indiana was trying to do with Aird. Better facilities, great pay, let him build the program and give performance bonuses as they build etc… It’s just not going to work out because they picked the wrong guy. Having your job being a stepping stone is a heck of a lot better than being a moribund program. Miami football was basically a stepping stone throughout the 80s and 90s, with Schnellenberger, Johnson, Franchione, and Butch Davis. It’s not THE problem for programs. It’s simply A problem distinct from being able to hire the right person in the first place. Hiring the right person is the unbelievably hard part. It’s because it’s so difficult that being able to retain them when you do find them is important, too. But I don’t mean to make them equivalent. Just separate issues. But for Indiana, apparently firing the obviously wrong person is a bridge too far. I mean, stupid is as stupid does, and you can’t fix stupid. It’s a shame to me he’ll have the job for another year. Well what people sometime think is a stepping stone job for them develops into a career job, and a great place for their family. I’d bet my life Dan Fisher planned on killing at Pitt and moving on. He built it into a top ten program and his family fell in love with Pgh. He turned a stepping stone job into an incredible job. In terms of things you want in a school to attract top players, campus, facilities, geography, league…..Indiana would be more attractive than Pitt in every category. A great coach could kill it an Indiana. |
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Post by bbg95 on May 19, 2022 15:41:48 GMT -5
I think I’m short the message you’re trying to relay is that until these jobs aren’t seen as “stepping stones”, the programs will continue to struggle to remain competitive (if they can even get there) because they will continue to have coaching turnover whether the last hire is successful (which means ‘promotion’ to something bigger and better) or not successful. (fired or contract not renewed.) These programs need to make it so their coaches don’t want to leave for something bigger and better; and I think that’s what Indiana was trying to do with Aird. Better facilities, great pay, let him build the program and give performance bonuses as they build etc… It’s just not going to work out because they picked the wrong guy. Having your job being a stepping stone is a heck of a lot better than being a moribund program. Miami football was basically a stepping stone throughout the 80s and 90s, with Schnellenberger, Johnson, Franchione, and Butch Davis. It’s not THE problem for programs. It’s simply A problem distinct from being able to hire the right person in the first place. Hiring the right person is the unbelievably hard part. It’s because it’s so difficult that being able to retain them when you do find them is important, too. But I don’t mean to make them equivalent. Just separate issues. But for Indiana, apparently firing the obviously wrong person is a bridge too far. I mean, stupid is as stupid does, and you can’t fix stupid. It’s a shame to me he’ll have the job for another year. I think you got Franchione mixed up with Erickson (understandable, with both having the same first name), but I agree. Also, I didn't realize that Miami hired Schnellenberger, Johnson, Erickson and Davis back-to-back-to-back-to-back. All four won national titles (well, Davis actually left before they did, but that amazing 2001 team was made up with his recruits, and they were so good, even Larry Coker could coach them to a title). That is incredible. Also, three of those coaches that left went to the NFL rather than another college job, so that isn't quite the same as a traditional stepping stone job. |
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Post by bbg95 on May 19, 2022 15:55:26 GMT -5
Having your job being a stepping stone is a heck of a lot better than being a moribund program. Miami football was basically a stepping stone throughout the 80s and 90s, with Schnellenberger, Johnson, Franchione, and Butch Davis. It’s not THE problem for programs. It’s simply A problem distinct from being able to hire the right person in the first place. Hiring the right person is the unbelievably hard part. It’s because it’s so difficult that being able to retain them when you do find them is important, too. But I don’t mean to make them equivalent. Just separate issues. But for Indiana, apparently firing the obviously wrong person is a bridge too far. I mean, stupid is as stupid does, and you can’t fix stupid. It’s a shame to me he’ll have the job for another year. Well what people sometime think is a stepping stone job for them develops into a career job, and a great place for their family. I’d bet my life Dan Fisher planned on killing at Pitt and moving on. He built it into a top ten program and his family fell in love with Pgh. He turned a stepping stone job into an incredible job. In terms of things you want in a school to attract top players, campus, facilities, geography, league…..Indiana would be more attractive than Pitt in every category. A great coach could kill it an Indiana. Hmm, I don't know. I mean, Fisher chose to stay at Pitt rather than going to Penn State, which is a better job than Indiana. And there are some downsides to taking a lower-tier job in the Big Ten. I think it was easier for Fisher to build Pitt in the ACC than building Indiana would be. |
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Post by lawnmowerfan on May 19, 2022 15:56:48 GMT -5
Also, that reminds me. Who did Aird beat out to get this job in the first place? Were there a lot of other top candidates who applied? If I recall correctly, the initial search (led by Mattie White) was not successful as IU received three “no thank you’s” from their top choices. It was also during this time that Maryland was not interested in offering a contract extension to Steve yet as they wanted to see how the 2018 season would go...mind you, Maryland was already losing players who were transferring out. Two desperate sides found each other. Apparently, no one at IU asked the simple questions “Why isn’t Maryland offering you an extension?” or “Why isn’t Maryland fighting to keep you?” |
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Post by bbg95 on May 19, 2022 16:01:48 GMT -5
Also, that reminds me. Who did Aird beat out to get this job in the first place? Were there a lot of other top candidates who applied? If I recall correctly, the initial search (led by Mattie White) was not successful as IU received three “no thank you’s” from their top choices. It was also during this time that Maryland was not interested in offering a contract extension to Steve yet as they wanted to see how the 2018 season would go...mind you, Maryland was already losing players who were transferring out. Two desperate sides found each other. Apparently, no one at IU asked the simple questions “Why isn’t Maryland offering you an extension?” or “Why isn’t Maryland fighting to keep you?”Lol. That's very interesting. Thanks. Also, Indiana gave Aird a seven-year contract. That seems like a lot for a guy who didn't do much at Maryland. |
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Post by slxpress on May 19, 2022 16:06:50 GMT -5
Are you Pete Waite’s buddy? Sure, I brought up Pete Waite and Wisconsin as a specific example of a program that would have been better off if they’d been able to keep their former coach. Period. The end. I stand by it. I haven’t done anything wrong here. Your insistence I have is not only not compelling to me, it doesn’t even make any sense to me. I’ve obviously made you very angry in a Will Smith sort of way, when I’m baffled as to how I’ve done that. John Cook was 'the right coach' in your example, Pete Waite was 'the wrong coach' when he replaced Cook. No? Well, that 'wrong coach' took them to nine straight NCAA appearances, won two Big Ten championships (only one fewer than John Cook at Nebraska, BTW), and a national final. If you can't see why throwing out Pete Waite's name in that context is incorrect and insulting - particularly on a thread about Steve Aird as a bad . bad coach and bad person - they I can't help you! If it’s insulting to say that John Cook wouldn’t have experienced 5 consecutive losing conference seasons at Wisconsin if he’d stayed, then I guess I’ll have to live with that. I bet that never happens to Sheffield, either. I don’t mean to disparage Pete Waite. I don’t have anything against him. But in this business coaches are measured by winning and losing. I’m not making anything up by citing Pete Waite’s record. He had a very good 8 year run followed by an abominable 5 year run. It is what it is. I regret you have such a difficult time with me bringing it up in a thread about Steve Aird, but I in no way meant to compare the two either directly or implied. I honestly never meant to upset you, and I obviously have, so I am sorry for that. |
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Post by greatlakesvballer on May 19, 2022 16:15:59 GMT -5
If I recall correctly, the initial search (led by Mattie White) was not successful as IU received three “no thank you’s” from their top choices. It was also during this time that Maryland was not interested in offering a contract extension to Steve yet as they wanted to see how the 2018 season would go...mind you, Maryland was already losing players who were transferring out. Two desperate sides found each other. Apparently, no one at IU asked the simple questions “Why isn’t Maryland offering you an extension?” or “Why isn’t Maryland fighting to keep you?”Lol. That's very interesting. Thanks. Also, Indiana gave Aird a seven-year contract. That seems like a lot for a guy who didn't do much at Maryland. Well...double that "very interesting" comment. I had no idea Aird started out at IU with a 7-year contract. Why? That seems...ridiculous. |
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Post by bbg95 on May 19, 2022 16:20:54 GMT -5
Lol. That's very interesting. Thanks. Also, Indiana gave Aird a seven-year contract. That seems like a lot for a guy who didn't do much at Maryland. Well...double that "very interesting" comment. I had no idea Aird started out at IU with a 7-year contract. Why? That seems...ridiculous. Yeah, I have been confused about that ever since I heard about it. Like why give him so much money and such a long contract when he hadn't really done anything as a head coach? Like yes, he was an assistant on some great Penn State teams. But he was still pretty unproven as a head coach. |
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Post by slxpress on May 19, 2022 16:22:28 GMT -5
Having your job being a stepping stone is a heck of a lot better than being a moribund program. Miami football was basically a stepping stone throughout the 80s and 90s, with Schnellenberger, Johnson, Franchione, and Butch Davis. It’s not THE problem for programs. It’s simply A problem distinct from being able to hire the right person in the first place. Hiring the right person is the unbelievably hard part. It’s because it’s so difficult that being able to retain them when you do find them is important, too. But I don’t mean to make them equivalent. Just separate issues. But for Indiana, apparently firing the obviously wrong person is a bridge too far. I mean, stupid is as stupid does, and you can’t fix stupid. It’s a shame to me he’ll have the job for another year. I think you got Franchione mixed up with Erickson (understandable, with both having the same first name), but I agree. Also, I didn't realize that Miami hired Schnellenberger, Johnson, Erickson and Davis back-to-back-to-back-to-back. All four won national titles (well, Davis actually left before they did, but that amazing 2001 team were made up with his recruits, and they were so good, even Larry Coker could coach them to a title). That is incredible. Also, three of those coaches that left went to the NFL rather than another college job, so that isn't quite the same as a traditional stepping stone job. Ha! Yeah, I have brain farts. Lifelong issue. I knew I meant Erickson. Consistently losing coaches to the pros still creates the same kind of dynamic. Think about where LSU and Alabama would be respectively in college football if it weren’t for the Miami Dolphins job. And Schnellenberger left for the newly formed USFL right after the upset over Nebraska following the 1983 season. So all four left for the pros. Later he’d take the job at Louisville and did some really good things there, only to be hired by OU in 1985. I thought that was the biggest slam dunk of a coaching hire in the history of college football to that time. He’s only the second head coach OU has hired in the post WWII era (Jim Tatum 1946). Along with Tatum, he’d only last the single season until he was dismissed. All other OU football coaching hires have been former assistants. They simply don’t hire head football coaches for the job. Never have, which I’ve always found interesting. The point is you have to be able to keep your guy, whether it’s to another college program, the pros, or the national team if that’s your competition. Texas went through a downturn in volleyball after refusing to make accommodations with Mick Haley for him to coach the US National team, so it happens. |
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Post by slxpress on May 19, 2022 16:25:47 GMT -5
Well...double that "very interesting" comment. I had no idea Aird started out at IU with a 7-year contract. Why? That seems...ridiculous. Yeah, I have been confused about that ever since I heard about it. Like why give him so much money and such a long contract when he hadn't really done anything as a head coach? Like yes, he was an assistant on some great Penn State teams. But he was still pretty unproven as a head coach. I mean, these are the same people who can’t pull the trigger now. This is not decision making at its finest. |
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Post by bbg95 on May 19, 2022 16:28:34 GMT -5
Yeah, I have been confused about that ever since I heard about it. Like why give him so much money and such a long contract when he hadn't really done anything as a head coach? Like yes, he was an assistant on some great Penn State teams. But he was still pretty unproven as a head coach. I mean, these are the same people who can’t pull the trigger now. This is not decision making at its finest. True. And this is also one of the reasons why I think some are overestimating how attractive this job will be when Aird finally is shown the door. |
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Post by bbg95 on May 19, 2022 16:38:25 GMT -5
I think you got Franchione mixed up with Erickson (understandable, with both having the same first name), but I agree. Also, I didn't realize that Miami hired Schnellenberger, Johnson, Erickson and Davis back-to-back-to-back-to-back. All four won national titles (well, Davis actually left before they did, but that amazing 2001 team were made up with his recruits, and they were so good, even Larry Coker could coach them to a title). That is incredible. Also, three of those coaches that left went to the NFL rather than another college job, so that isn't quite the same as a traditional stepping stone job. Ha! Yeah, I have brain farts. Lifelong issue. I knew I meant Erickson. Consistently losing coaches to the pros still creates the same kind of dynamic. Think about where LSU and Alabama would be respectively in college football if it weren’t for the Miami Dolphins job. And Schnellenberger left for the newly formed USFL right after the upset over Nebraska following the 1983 season. So all four left for the pros. Later he’d take the job at Louisville and did some really good things there, only to be hired by OU in 1985. I thought that was the biggest slam dunk of a coaching hire in the history of college football to that time. He’s only the second head coach OU has hired in the post WWII era (Jim Tatum 1946). Along with Tatum, he’d only last the single season until he was dismissed. All other OU football coaching hires have been former assistants. They simply don’t hire head football coaches for the job. Never have, which I’ve always found interesting.The point is you have to be able to keep your guy, whether it’s to another college program, the pros, or the national team if that’s your competition. Texas went through a downturn in volleyball after refusing to make accommodations with Mick Haley for him to coach the US National team, so it happens. That is interesting. I guess it's worked out for the most part. They continued that trend with Venables, and I think that should work out fine. |
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Post by slxpress on May 19, 2022 16:48:26 GMT -5
Ha! Yeah, I have brain farts. Lifelong issue. I knew I meant Erickson. Consistently losing coaches to the pros still creates the same kind of dynamic. Think about where LSU and Alabama would be respectively in college football if it weren’t for the Miami Dolphins job. And Schnellenberger left for the newly formed USFL right after the upset over Nebraska following the 1983 season. So all four left for the pros. Later he’d take the job at Louisville and did some really good things there, only to be hired by OU in 1985. I thought that was the biggest slam dunk of a coaching hire in the history of college football to that time. He’s only the second head coach OU has hired in the post WWII era (Jim Tatum 1946). Along with Tatum, he’d only last the single season until he was dismissed. All other OU football coaching hires have been former assistants. They simply don’t hire head football coaches for the job. Never have, which I’ve always found interesting.The point is you have to be able to keep your guy, whether it’s to another college program, the pros, or the national team if that’s your competition. Texas went through a downturn in volleyball after refusing to make accommodations with Mick Haley for him to coach the US National team, so it happens. That is interesting. I guess it's worked out for the most part. They continued that trend with Venables, and I think that should work out fine. Bud Wilkinson. Barry Switzer. Bob Stoops. To a lesser degree Chuck Fairbanks and Lincoln Riley. They’ve had misses, but that’s a heck of a track record. Wilkinson and Switzer are two of the greatest of all time, and Stoops is a future hall of farmer for sure. |
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Post by gibbyb1 on May 19, 2022 18:09:34 GMT -5
I mean, these are the same people who can’t pull the trigger now. This is not decision making at its finest. True. And this is also one of the reasons why I think some are overestimating how attractive this job will be when Aird finally is shown the door. I don’t disagree, but sometimes coming in while it so down is a perfect scenario. All you can do is move up. Remember we don’t have anywhere near all the details of what went on, the investigation, any probationary measures taken…… the right pieces are more than in place IMO. Respected institution, beautiful campus, top league, top local and regional talent, salary, facility. This place checks a ton of boxes for good candidates. |
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