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Post by moderndaycoach on Apr 19, 2022 10:07:40 GMT -5
Bottom line is that people are complicated, but that doesn't mean it's automatically evil if a coach and a person they are coaching fall for each other. It *is* automatically evil for an adult to use a position of teaching children as access to sexually using those children. And I think equating the latter with the former really seriously underplays the evil of the latter. This is what I really disagree with. Any coach / player relationship is a very significant power imbalance. Coaches decide playing time, positions, tactics, etc. They have huge control over the player. With that type of power imbalance and control, it is evil to use that to develop a sexual relationship. It just is. I agree that it is worse to do it with a minor but I don't see a big difference just because someone has turned 18. FWIW, adult rec leagues and climbing clubs a a bit different because they just aren't that serious. I also think student support staff is a very different thing without any of the power relationships. But club & college volleyball are huge commitments with big power imbalances. You might say that former players are fine. But Russ Rose coached Lori until December of 85 and they got married in 86. Does anyone really believe that they started dating, got serious, got engaged and married within 12 months? You would think that they would delay it at least for appearance sake. But they didn't because at that time this type of coach / player relationship was fine. Rick Butler looks at that and says if Rose can date a player then why can't I? I dated my high school girl friend when she was 16 and I was 18 so how bad is that really? If the two people meet 10 years later then that is probably fine. But that is never the way this stuff happens. The relationship almost always happens right after they are coach / player and most people know it started sooner. We need to have a basic standard in sports that coaches dating or marrying former player is just not OK. If I was an AD I would not hire someone who married or even dated a former player. If one of my current coaches started doing it that would be grounds for termination. Otherwise you have Russ Rose marrying a former player that he says he only started dating after he wasn't her player and we all know what that really means and what is acceptable. Russ Rose and Rick Butler are part of the same culture that says this stuff is OK. It isn't. If you go back and read through some of the original transcripts from numerous different events, he even alludes to this general idea. Something along the lines of take a look around why are you coming after me type of statement, It was in that realm but can't remember verbatim. Basically rick was implying that it was common practice across multiple sports and didn't see an issue with it.
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Post by oldnewbie on Apr 19, 2022 10:23:07 GMT -5
Do you mind me asking... why now? Decades later. I didn't say you all got together to conspire against him. I am wondering what do you have to gain? What is your reasoning for speaking up now? I understand that it takes time to come forward about allegations; however, why 20+ years later. Why now? First off, he is the one suing now. It's a good question why HE chose to make this an issue again right now, rather than quietly retire. This isn't new. The victims have been reporting and pressing for discipline for decades. The initial 5 year window for criminal prosecution was missed, due to victims being scared and embarrassed for themselves and their families. That is not uncommon in cases like this with underage victims, which is why the statute of limitations is often (and has subsequently been) increased. It gained momentum when some of the victims became old enough to become coaches and mothers and found their voices to protect the next generation and to assert their right not to have their rapist working in the same building and competing against their teams at tournaments.
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Post by oldnewbie on Apr 19, 2022 10:26:18 GMT -5
Do you mind me asking... why now? Decades later. I didn't say you all got together to conspire against him. I am wondering what do you have to gain? What is your reasoning for speaking up now? I understand that it takes time to come forward about allegations; however, why 20+ years later. Why now? Do you realize that this has been brought up here on Volleytalk starting in (at least) 2006? People have been coming forward with this for a long time. Maybe you should have done some looking, before assuming they remained silent for 20+ years. (Although it wouldn't have invalidated their experiences or allegations if they had.) Weren't the USAV hearings where he was initially banned for life about 10 years before that? I believe they allowed him to petition to return after 5 years, and let him. That was the failure that they finally corrected much more recently.
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Post by mikegarrison on Apr 19, 2022 12:13:00 GMT -5
Russ Rose and Rick Butler are part of the same culture that says this stuff is OK. It isn't. If you go back and read through some of the original transcripts from numerous different events, he even alludes to this general idea. Something along the lines of take a look around why are you coming after me type of statement, It was in that realm but can't remember verbatim. Basically rick was implying that it was common practice across multiple sports and didn't see an issue with it. But there *was* a difference. Rose was coaching adults, and Butler was coaching kids (teenagers). Not acknowledging the huge difference there completely downplays what was so wrong about what Butler did. An adult having sex with a child is RAPE. An adult having consensual sex with an adult might be unprofessional, but it's not rape.
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Post by oldnewbie on Apr 19, 2022 12:55:27 GMT -5
But there *was* a difference. Rose was coaching adults, and Butler was coaching kids (teenagers). Not acknowledging the huge difference there completely downplays what was so wrong about what Butler did. An adult having sex with a child is RAPE. An adult having consensual sex with an adult might be unprofessional, but it's not rape. It's pretty straight forward to me, IMHO. A club coach having a relationship with a player should be banned from coaching (safe sport) and potentially charged criminally. Since Butler owns the club, he can't be forcibly fired but can be banned from coaching in USAV. Of course that doesn't prevent him from starting his own organization with people loyal to him who won't ban him for 15 years or so. A college coach having a relationship with a player should be a fireable offense (like it is at many schools for teachers/professors, it should be doubly so for coaches because of their level of control). This definitely applies to the head coach, and I think it should apply at a minimum to all paid positions (Coach, associate head coach, assistant coach and DOVO). Volunteer coach, student manager, etc are a gray area for me since they are typically closer in age and without much, if any, authority over the player. A college coach having a relationship with a former player is socially weird to me (because of the transition from a completely one-sided, authoritarian relationship) and raises eyebrows as to when it really began, but otherwise is "whatever" between two adults.
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Post by stanfordvb on Apr 19, 2022 13:02:07 GMT -5
But there *was* a difference. Rose was coaching adults, and Butler was coaching kids (teenagers). Not acknowledging the huge difference there completely downplays what was so wrong about what Butler did. An adult having sex with a child is RAPE. An adult having consensual sex with an adult might be unprofessional, but it's not rape. It's pretty straight forward to me, IMHO. A club coach having a relationship with a player should be banned from coaching (safe sport) and potentially charged criminally. Since Butler owns the club, he can't be forcibly fired but can be banned from coaching in USAV. Of course that doesn't prevent him from starting his own organization with people loyal to him who won't ban him for 15 years or so. A college coach having a relationship with a player should be a fireable offense (like it is at many schools for teachers/professors, it should be doubly so for coaches because of their level of control). This definitely applies to the head coach, and I think it should apply at a minimum to all paid positions (Coach, associate head coach, assistant coach and DOVO). Volunteer coach, student manager, etc are a gray area for me since they are typically closer in age and without much, if any, authority over the player. A college coach having a relationship with a former player is socially weird to me (because of the transition from a completely one-sided, authoritarian relationship) and raises eyebrows as to when it really began, but otherwise is "whatever" between two adults. Coaches have any relationship in any aspect is wrong. Even if it’s a volunteer that’s only 1 or two years older than the player, it’s till wrong and not allowed. I’ve had a close up view to a large D1 program and I can assure you that if a volunteer coach had a relationship with a player they would be fired immediately. Student managers are different in the sense that they are also students at the Univeristy and are in no position of power over the player. They have no say in who’s starting or who is/isn’t doing well. Their job is mainly to do things like keep stats, setup drills, shag balls, put up and take down nets, etc.
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Post by mikegarrison on Apr 19, 2022 13:11:44 GMT -5
It's pretty straight forward to me, IMHO. A club coach having a relationship with a player should be banned from coaching (safe sport) and potentially charged criminally. Since Butler owns the club, he can't be forcibly fired but can be banned from coaching in USAV. Of course that doesn't prevent him from starting his own organization with people loyal to him who won't ban him for 15 years or so. A college coach having a relationship with a player should be a fireable offense (like it is at many schools for teachers/professors, it should be doubly so for coaches because of their level of control). This definitely applies to the head coach, and I think it should apply at a minimum to all paid positions (Coach, associate head coach, assistant coach and DOVO). Volunteer coach, student manager, etc are a gray area for me since they are typically closer in age and without much, if any, authority over the player. A college coach having a relationship with a former player is socially weird to me (because of the transition from a completely one-sided, authoritarian relationship) and raises eyebrows as to when it really began, but otherwise is "whatever" between two adults. Coaches have any relationship in any aspect is wrong. Even if it’s a volunteer that’s only 1 or two years older than the player, it’s till wrong and not allowed. I’ve had a close up view to a large D1 program and I can assure you that if a volunteer coach had a relationship with a player they would be fired immediately. Student managers are different in the sense that they are also students at the Univeristy and are in no position of power over the player. They have no say in who’s starting or who is/isn’t doing well. Their job is mainly to do things like keep stats, setup drills, shag balls, put up and take down nets, etc. And here is where we get to what I talked about, multiple times. It's an issue of professional ethics (and possibly sexual harassment, depending on whether it was welcomed or not), when it is between adults. And pretty much *all* those issues disappear with a former player. So I just don't get the fanatic distaste for a coach getting involved with a former player. As for Rose specifically, who the hell knows? Do people *know* when Russ and Lori started dating? Or are they just guessing? Obviously they knew each other for years, and likely admired each other for years. But I'm not going to guess when that shifted to intimacy.
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Post by moderndaycoach on Apr 19, 2022 13:19:30 GMT -5
If you go back and read through some of the original transcripts from numerous different events, he even alludes to this general idea. Something along the lines of take a look around why are you coming after me type of statement, It was in that realm but can't remember verbatim. Basically rick was implying that it was common practice across multiple sports and didn't see an issue with it. But there *was* a difference. Rose was coaching adults, and Butler was coaching kids (teenagers). Not acknowledging the huge difference there completely downplays what was so wrong about what Butler did. An adult having sex with a child is RAPE. An adult having consensual sex with an adult might be unprofessional, but it's not rape. I am by no means saying they were the same thing, I am simply saying that in his own words and defense of his actions he compared that coaches across multiple sports would have physical relationships with their players and then went hard at the angle they were of age. We know they were not, but also makes you wonder who else was doing it at that time for him to feel so comfortable exploiting underage girls like that considering he must have felt comfortable taking that risk by seeing others get away with it or have it brushed off.
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Post by moderndaycoach on Apr 19, 2022 13:23:55 GMT -5
It was in the 1995 Hearings with USA Volleyball.. there were rumors he threatened to "out" some of those coaches who did what he did For those of you new, the hearings began in 1995 when the abused decided to come forward, and the statue of limitations expired so USA Volleyball banned him but asked the abused to be "quiet" about it..some one posted the transcript a long time ago on here I don't have time to go combing through and find the quotes, but if I remember correctly he went the pity route and had asked why they were coming after him when there were so many others they could be looking at.
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Post by oldnewbie on Apr 19, 2022 13:28:19 GMT -5
It's pretty straight forward to me, IMHO. A club coach having a relationship with a player should be banned from coaching (safe sport) and potentially charged criminally. Since Butler owns the club, he can't be forcibly fired but can be banned from coaching in USAV. Of course that doesn't prevent him from starting his own organization with people loyal to him who won't ban him for 15 years or so. A college coach having a relationship with a player should be a fireable offense (like it is at many schools for teachers/professors, it should be doubly so for coaches because of their level of control). This definitely applies to the head coach, and I think it should apply at a minimum to all paid positions (Coach, associate head coach, assistant coach and DOVO). Volunteer coach, student manager, etc are a gray area for me since they are typically closer in age and without much, if any, authority over the player. A college coach having a relationship with a former player is socially weird to me (because of the transition from a completely one-sided, authoritarian relationship) and raises eyebrows as to when it really began, but otherwise is "whatever" between two adults. Coaches have any relationship in any aspect is wrong. Even if it’s a volunteer that’s only 1 or two years older than the player, it’s till wrong and not allowed. I’ve had a close up view to a large D1 program and I can assure you that if a volunteer coach had a relationship with a player they would be fired immediately. Student managers are different in the sense that they are also students at the Univeristy and are in no position of power over the player. They have no say in who’s starting or who is/isn’t doing well. Their job is mainly to do things like keep stats, setup drills, shag balls, put up and take down nets, etc. I don't disagree that it's a bad idea, just that you hit a point that it is more appropriate to be team policy rather than school policy. Volunteer assistants run the gamut from international head coaches (Jamie Morrison at Texas) to recent grads that may be the same age or even younger than some of their players. In general, even when full grown professional adults, coaches dating players is a bad idea. Just look at the 1996 USA women's volleyball team.
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Post by mikegarrison on Apr 19, 2022 13:34:37 GMT -5
Coaches have any relationship in any aspect is wrong. Even if it’s a volunteer that’s only 1 or two years older than the player, it’s till wrong and not allowed. I’ve had a close up view to a large D1 program and I can assure you that if a volunteer coach had a relationship with a player they would be fired immediately. Student managers are different in the sense that they are also students at the Univeristy and are in no position of power over the player. They have no say in who’s starting or who is/isn’t doing well. Their job is mainly to do things like keep stats, setup drills, shag balls, put up and take down nets, etc. I don't disagree that it's a bad idea, just that you hit a point that it is more appropriate to be team policy rather than school policy. Volunteer assistants run the gamut from international head coaches (Jamie Morrison at Texas) to recent grads that may be the same age or even younger than some of their players. In general, even when full grown professional adults, coaches dating players is a bad idea. Just look at the 1996 USA women's volleyball team. Claes and Sponcil just broke up, at the same time as it was revealed that Claes became engaged to their joint coach. I believe I've said from the start that this is at least potentially a professional problem. But it's not RAPE, which is why it is not at all as bad as what Butler is accused of doing.
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Post by oldnewbie on Apr 19, 2022 13:41:12 GMT -5
Coaches have any relationship in any aspect is wrong. Even if it’s a volunteer that’s only 1 or two years older than the player, it’s till wrong and not allowed. I’ve had a close up view to a large D1 program and I can assure you that if a volunteer coach had a relationship with a player they would be fired immediately. Student managers are different in the sense that they are also students at the Univeristy and are in no position of power over the player. They have no say in who’s starting or who is/isn’t doing well. Their job is mainly to do things like keep stats, setup drills, shag balls, put up and take down nets, etc. And here is where we get to what I talked about, multiple times. It's an issue of professional ethics (and possibly sexual harassment, depending on whether it was welcomed or not), when it is between adults. And pretty much *all* those issues disappear with a former player. So I just don't get the fanatic distaste for a coach getting involved with a former player. As for Rose specifically, who the hell knows? Do you *know* when Russ and Lori started dating? Or are you just guessing? Obviously they knew each other for years, and likely admired each other for years. But I'm not going to guess when that shifted to intimacy. I think from a team culture and team dynamic point of view, any coach dating any player is a bad idea that may damage team chemistry. That is entirely different than something that should be actively banned with penalties. It's for the head coach and/or the overarching organization to decide how to handle those situations (i.e. professional or olympic level teams) Kind of on the order of is it a really bad idea to sleep with your teammates spouse? Of course. Should it be illegal? Of course not.
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Post by stanfordvb on Apr 19, 2022 13:48:15 GMT -5
I don't disagree that it's a bad idea, just that you hit a point that it is more appropriate to be team policy rather than school policy. Volunteer assistants run the gamut from international head coaches (Jamie Morrison at Texas) to recent grads that may be the same age or even younger than some of their players. In general, even when full grown professional adults, coaches dating players is a bad idea. Just look at the 1996 USA women's volleyball team. Claes and Sponcil just broke up, at the same time as it was revealed that Claes became engaged to their joint coach. I believe I've said from the start that this is at least potentially a professional problem. But it's not RAPE, which is why it is not at all as bad as what Butler is accused of doing. I think it’s different when it’s in a professional setting. Claes and sponcils coach is not necessarily employed by a larger organization that has control over the players as students the way a Univeristy does. Still probably not ideal to be coached by a significant other. Isn’t de genarro married to her coach? Maybe I made that up but I thought I heard that
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Post by moderndaycoach on Apr 19, 2022 13:55:45 GMT -5
Weren't the USAV hearings where he was initially banned for life about 10 years before that? I believe they allowed him to petition to return after 5 years, and let him. That was the failure that they finally corrected much more recently. 1995 USA volleyball held hearing He was 5 year banned from all...2000 he reaplied and could be a boys coach (cough, cough_) or admin I don't believe he could still be a coach, he could be a chaperone or an admin and if you looked at most boys USAV rosters post 2000 he was listed on almost all of them as a chaperone without really ever attending a USAV event with them.
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Post by oldnewbie on Apr 19, 2022 14:04:25 GMT -5
If you go back and read through some of the original transcripts from numerous different events, he even alludes to this general idea. Something along the lines of take a look around why are you coming after me type of statement, It was in that realm but can't remember verbatim. Basically rick was implying that it was common practice across multiple sports and didn't see an issue with it. One vestige of this era is still on full display. Mens and womens uniforms are NOT the same.
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