bluepenquin
Hall of Fame
4-Time VolleyTalk Poster of the Year (2019, 2018, 2017, 2016), All-VolleyTalk 1st Team (2021, 2020, 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016)
Posts: 12,589
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Post by bluepenquin on Jul 29, 2022 10:33:44 GMT -5
Thanks for pointing this out. I will now buy 'The Baseball 100' from Posnanski.
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Post by bbg95 on Jul 29, 2022 10:54:33 GMT -5
Thanks for pointing this out. I will now buy 'The Baseball 100' from Posnanski. Posnanski is a great writer. Though it looks like he ranked Willie Mays ahead of Babe Ruth, and that's just an incorrect take in my view. I mean, I sort of understand the arguments for that position. But I'm just not willing to overlook an enormous advantage of 27 WAR. That's like three full MVP-caliber seasons.
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bluepenquin
Hall of Fame
4-Time VolleyTalk Poster of the Year (2019, 2018, 2017, 2016), All-VolleyTalk 1st Team (2021, 2020, 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016)
Posts: 12,589
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Post by bluepenquin on Jul 29, 2022 12:44:38 GMT -5
Thanks for pointing this out. I will now buy 'The Baseball 100' from Posnanski. Posnanski is a great writer. Though it looks like he ranked Willie Mays ahead of Babe Ruth, and that's just an incorrect take in my view. I mean, I sort of understand the arguments for that position. But I'm just not willing to overlook an enormous advantage of 27 WAR. That's like three full MVP-caliber seasons. I agree that Posnanski is a great writer. Posnanski is SABR inclined - he is a very close friend to Bill James. Being a close friend of James, he probably knows all to well James' critic of WAR. The book would be rather boring if it just listed in order the top 100 players according to WAR. I am very interested in Posnanski's reasons - being that he isn't some non-SABR hack talking about baseball, and he may have some deep suspicions of WAR or the use of WAR as a final arbiter. WAR is pretty much my go-to, so this has my interest.
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Post by nowhereman on Jul 29, 2022 12:55:28 GMT -5
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Post by geddyleeridesagain on Jul 29, 2022 12:58:55 GMT -5
"The Baseball 100" should be on every baseball fan's shelf, IMO. One word of caution: it's nearly 1,000 pages.
Posnanski wrote another baseball book I thought was quite good: "The Soul of Baseball," which was basically kind of a diary of a long road trip he took with the legendary Buck O'Neill.
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Post by nowhereman on Jul 29, 2022 13:09:35 GMT -5
Just started the chapter on Tony Gwynn. "Mired' in a .360 slump sometime in 1989.
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Post by bbg95 on Jul 29, 2022 14:07:08 GMT -5
Posnanski is a great writer. Though it looks like he ranked Willie Mays ahead of Babe Ruth, and that's just an incorrect take in my view. I mean, I sort of understand the arguments for that position. But I'm just not willing to overlook an enormous advantage of 27 WAR. That's like three full MVP-caliber seasons. I agree that Posnanski is a great writer. Posnanski is SABR inclined - he is a very close friend to Bill James. Being a close friend of James, he probably knows all to well James' critic of WAR. The book would be rather boring if it just listed in order the top 100 players according to WAR. I am very interested in Posnanski's reasons - being that he isn't some non-SABR hack talking about baseball, and he may have some deep suspicions of WAR or the use of WAR as a final arbiter. WAR is pretty much my go-to, so this has my interest. I agree that it would be boring if he just went down the list by WAR. But I've read enough Posnanski (I used to read him religiously until he started putting his content behind a paywall) to know that he is extremely married to WAR for things like MVP and HOF voting. So for him to ignore such a massive advantage for Ruth makes the top of his list automatically suspect in my view. I think any baseball list that doesn't have Ruth at No. 1 is like a basketball list that doesn't have Michael Jordan at No. 1 or a hockey list that doesn't have Wayne Gretzky at No. 1. I just think there isn't a good argument against any of those players as the greatest in their respective sports (and loath as I am to admit it, I don't think there's a good case against Tom Brady in football anymore either). There may be a case for a better position player, but Ruth will always have the trump card that he was an All Star-caliber (and arguably Cy Young-caliber) pitcher as well. All that being said, I'm sure the book is still a great read. He was publishing his top 100 list on his website for a while (I think he got as high as about No. 80 or so) before eventually putting it in a book, and I enjoyed almost all of those entries. It reminds me a bit of The Book of Basketball by Bill Simmons, which is also a great read, but I had to take some of it with a grain of salt because of Simmons' obvious pro-Celtics bias. He rather laughably ranked the 1986 Celtics as the greatest team of all time and made some rather disingenuous arguments to try to undermine the actual greatest team, the 1996 Bulls. But it was still a great book to read because it gave a lot of insight about some of the greatest players and teams in basketball history. I just had to roll my eyes at certain points.
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Post by valleyvolley1 on Jul 29, 2022 15:00:23 GMT -5
ok, dumb question. my kids played baseball before volleyball. The reason why we switched is my older one pithed in HS, but when the coach left, the guys who took over were guys that ran club teams and we didn't play for his teams. Kinda sad, my son's era his sophomore year was 1.05 and they just wouldn't pitch him. But, volleyball turned out better. anybody have imilar experiences?
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bluepenquin
Hall of Fame
4-Time VolleyTalk Poster of the Year (2019, 2018, 2017, 2016), All-VolleyTalk 1st Team (2021, 2020, 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016)
Posts: 12,589
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Post by bluepenquin on Jul 30, 2022 9:35:04 GMT -5
I agree that Posnanski is a great writer. Posnanski is SABR inclined - he is a very close friend to Bill James. Being a close friend of James, he probably knows all to well James' critic of WAR. The book would be rather boring if it just listed in order the top 100 players according to WAR. I am very interested in Posnanski's reasons - being that he isn't some non-SABR hack talking about baseball, and he may have some deep suspicions of WAR or the use of WAR as a final arbiter. WAR is pretty much my go-to, so this has my interest. I agree that it would be boring if he just went down the list by WAR. But I've read enough Posnanski (I used to read him religiously until he started putting his content behind a paywall) to know that he is extremely married to WAR for things like MVP and HOF voting. So for him to ignore such a massive advantage for Ruth makes the top of his list automatically suspect in my view. I think any baseball list that doesn't have Ruth at No. 1 is like a basketball list that doesn't have Michael Jordan at No. 1 or a hockey list that doesn't have Wayne Gretzky at No. 1. I just think there isn't a good argument against any of those players as the greatest in their respective sports (and loath as I am to admit it, I don't think there's a good case against Tom Brady in football anymore either). There may be a case for a better position player, but Ruth will always have the trump card that he was an All Star-caliber (and arguably Cy Young-caliber) pitcher as well. All that being said, I'm sure the book is still a great read. He was publishing his top 100 list on his website for a while (I think he got as high as about No. 80 or so) before eventually putting it in a book, and I enjoyed almost all of those entries. It reminds me a bit of The Book of Basketball by Bill Simmons, which is also a great read, but I had to take some of it with a grain of salt because of Simmons' obvious pro-Celtics bias. He rather laughably ranked the 1986 Celtics as the greatest team of all time and made some rather disingenuous arguments to try to undermine the actual greatest team, the 1996 Bulls. But it was still a great book to read because it gave a lot of insight about some of the greatest players and teams in basketball history. I just had to roll my eyes at certain points. I have just completed a long 7 month project to recreate the old Sports Illustrated All-Time All-Star Baseball board game. This game came out in 1974 and I played the heck out of the game as a kid. I wanted to update with the last 50 years of baseball and for nostalgic reasons wanted to create the same look as the original game (while updating the flaws in the original game). So, I have been deep in baseball history mode for these last 7 months - ending up with 560 players in the game on 20 franchises. I was just thumbing through Bill James Win Shares book from 2002. Here was who he had as the best 10 players of all-time in terms of career Win Shares (I am confident that this wouldn't be his top 10 players of all-time): 1. Babe Ruth - 756 2. Ty Cobb - 722 3. Honus Wagner - 655 4. Hank Aaron - 643 5. Willie Mays - 642 6. Cy Young - 634 7. Tris Speaker - 630 8. Stan Musial - 604 9. Eddie Collins - 574 10. Mickey Mantle - 565 If you take away Ruth's pitching win shares - he drops down to 654 (not that we should taking this away). 5 of the top 7 players on this list played before 1940. Mays, Aaron, and Mantle are the only 'modern' players from this list of 10 (maybe Musial depending on the definition). Anyway - I don't see it as being an outrageous stretch to place Mays as the best player of all-time, he was certainly among the very greatest to play the game.
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Post by bbg95 on Jul 30, 2022 9:43:21 GMT -5
I agree that it would be boring if he just went down the list by WAR. But I've read enough Posnanski (I used to read him religiously until he started putting his content behind a paywall) to know that he is extremely married to WAR for things like MVP and HOF voting. So for him to ignore such a massive advantage for Ruth makes the top of his list automatically suspect in my view. I think any baseball list that doesn't have Ruth at No. 1 is like a basketball list that doesn't have Michael Jordan at No. 1 or a hockey list that doesn't have Wayne Gretzky at No. 1. I just think there isn't a good argument against any of those players as the greatest in their respective sports (and loath as I am to admit it, I don't think there's a good case against Tom Brady in football anymore either). There may be a case for a better position player, but Ruth will always have the trump card that he was an All Star-caliber (and arguably Cy Young-caliber) pitcher as well. All that being said, I'm sure the book is still a great read. He was publishing his top 100 list on his website for a while (I think he got as high as about No. 80 or so) before eventually putting it in a book, and I enjoyed almost all of those entries. It reminds me a bit of The Book of Basketball by Bill Simmons, which is also a great read, but I had to take some of it with a grain of salt because of Simmons' obvious pro-Celtics bias. He rather laughably ranked the 1986 Celtics as the greatest team of all time and made some rather disingenuous arguments to try to undermine the actual greatest team, the 1996 Bulls. But it was still a great book to read because it gave a lot of insight about some of the greatest players and teams in basketball history. I just had to roll my eyes at certain points. I have just completed a long 7 month project to recreate the old Sports Illustrated All-Time All-Star Baseball board game. This game came out in 1974 and I played the heck out of the game as a kid. I wanted to update with the last 50 years of baseball and for nostalgic reasons wanted to create the same look as the original game (while updating the flaws in the original game). So, I have been deep in baseball history mode for these last 7 months - ending up with 560 players in the game on 20 franchises. I was just thumbing through Bill James Win Shares book from 2002. Here was who he had as the best 10 players of all-time in terms of career Win Shares (I am confident that this wouldn't be his top 10 players of all-time): 1. Babe Ruth - 756 2. Ty Cobb - 722 3. Honus Wagner - 655 4. Hank Aaron - 643 5. Willie Mays - 642 6. Cy Young - 634 7. Tris Speaker - 630 8. Stan Musial - 604 9. Eddie Collins - 574 10. Mickey Mantle - 565 If you take away Ruth's pitching win shares - he drops down to 654 (not that we should taking this away). 5 of the top 7 players on this list played before 1940. Mays, Aaron, and Mantle are the only 'modern' players from this list of 10 (maybe Musial depending on the definition). Anyway - I don't see it as being an outrageous stretch to place Mays as the best player of all-time, he was certainly among the very greatest to play the game. The thing is, Mays played a long time ago too. His career ended nearly 50 years ago. If we want a modern player, I'd just give it Bonds at that point. Obviously, Mays is still one of the all-time greats. But it's like arguing for anyone other than Michael Jordan or Wayne Gretzky. The bar is extremely high.
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Post by bbg95 on Jul 30, 2022 9:56:29 GMT -5
Also, Rickey Henderson is one of the most underrated baseball players ever despite the fact that he's widely acknowledged to be the best leadoff hitter of all time. That doesn't really do it justice. He has 111.1 WAR. The only players in the last 50 years with more are Bonds, Clemens and A-Rod, all connected to PEDs.
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bluepenquin
Hall of Fame
4-Time VolleyTalk Poster of the Year (2019, 2018, 2017, 2016), All-VolleyTalk 1st Team (2021, 2020, 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016)
Posts: 12,589
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Post by bluepenquin on Jul 30, 2022 11:52:05 GMT -5
I have just completed a long 7 month project to recreate the old Sports Illustrated All-Time All-Star Baseball board game. This game came out in 1974 and I played the heck out of the game as a kid. I wanted to update with the last 50 years of baseball and for nostalgic reasons wanted to create the same look as the original game (while updating the flaws in the original game). So, I have been deep in baseball history mode for these last 7 months - ending up with 560 players in the game on 20 franchises. I was just thumbing through Bill James Win Shares book from 2002. Here was who he had as the best 10 players of all-time in terms of career Win Shares (I am confident that this wouldn't be his top 10 players of all-time): 1. Babe Ruth - 756 2. Ty Cobb - 722 3. Honus Wagner - 655 4. Hank Aaron - 643 5. Willie Mays - 642 6. Cy Young - 634 7. Tris Speaker - 630 8. Stan Musial - 604 9. Eddie Collins - 574 10. Mickey Mantle - 565 If you take away Ruth's pitching win shares - he drops down to 654 (not that we should taking this away). 5 of the top 7 players on this list played before 1940. Mays, Aaron, and Mantle are the only 'modern' players from this list of 10 (maybe Musial depending on the definition). Anyway - I don't see it as being an outrageous stretch to place Mays as the best player of all-time, he was certainly among the very greatest to play the game. The thing is, Mays played a long time ago too. His career ended nearly 50 years ago. If we want a modern player, I'd just give it Bonds at that point. Obviously, Mays is still one of the all-time greats. But it's like arguing for anyone other than Michael Jordan or Wayne Gretzky. The bar is extremely high. I should have been more blunt - by modern, I meant that some of the greatest baseball players of all-time (Gibson, Charleston, Paige, etc...) weren't banned by the major leagues. One could argue that Gretzky didn't play against the best, Jordan most likely did. BTW, I have those (Ruth, Gretzky, Jordan) as the best players in their sport of all-time. Who is the greatest football player of all-time? Jim Brown?
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Post by bbg95 on Jul 30, 2022 12:05:55 GMT -5
The thing is, Mays played a long time ago too. His career ended nearly 50 years ago. If we want a modern player, I'd just give it Bonds at that point. Obviously, Mays is still one of the all-time greats. But it's like arguing for anyone other than Michael Jordan or Wayne Gretzky. The bar is extremely high. I should have been more blunt - by modern, I meant that some of the greatest baseball players of all-time (Gibson, Charleston, Paige, etc...) weren't banned by the major leagues. One could argue that Gretzky didn't play against the best, Jordan most likely did. BTW, I have those (Ruth, Gretzky, Jordan) as the best players in their sport of all-time. Who is the greatest football player of all-time? Jim Brown? Sure, I agree on most of that. Though I have to disagree on Brown. I don't think he was even the greatest running back of all time. That's Barry Sanders. As for best overall football player, I just find it really difficult to argue against Tom Brady, even though I despise the Patriots.
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Post by nowhereman on Jul 30, 2022 13:04:20 GMT -5
Of course, baseball conversation compared to other sports revolves around the numbers but what I like most about reading is the anecdotes. Like one from duke snider. One time he was hanging out with pee wee Reese and Reese was pulled over for speeding but when the trooper recognized pee wee he gave him a pass. Later when snider did the same thing he was given a ticket.
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Post by nowhereman on Jul 30, 2022 16:39:00 GMT -5
One annoying trend in MLB is towards six man rotations. That and the emphasis on relief pitching. I was at a Rangers - Mariners game on Tuesday 7/26 and both starters only went five innings. I think it's pathetic that a guy who basically only pitched one inning at a time got the only 100 percent vote for the hall of fame. If rivera had pitched for any team other than the Yankees would he have gotten a unanimous vote? L
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