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Post by justahick on Nov 12, 2022 21:11:55 GMT -5
I'm confused because now you are saying that the up ref does clearly indicate each time whether or not there was a block touch, so is directly involved in the recording of that stat and it is not up to the interpretation of the stat keeper. That is what I would expect. No, I’m saying that the touch/no-touch often is implied by the near-future actions of the ref. If the ball falls in the court, untouched by the attacking team, there is no indication in the ref’s signal as to whether there was a block, or simply an attack error. The ball is simply “down on side A, point to side B.” In this scenario, I don’t know how/whether an indication is made to the stats person on whether a block occurred.There is no indication from the ref to the stat crew. As a ref, I don't know or care if there is a stats crew, where they are or what they know. It isn't part of the job description.
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Post by dodger on Nov 12, 2022 21:17:35 GMT -5
No, I’m saying that the touch/no-touch often is implied by the near-future actions of the ref. If the ball falls in the court, untouched by the attacking team, there is no indication in the ref’s signal as to whether there was a block, or simply an attack error. The ball is simply “down on side A, point to side B.” In this scenario, I don’t know how/whether an indication is made to the stats person on whether a block occurred.There is no indication from the ref to the stat crew. As a ref, I don't know or care if there is a stats crew, where they are or what they know. It isn't part of the job description. I dont believe we are saying the ref. Is signaling for stats crew: the ref is signaling how the rally ends: block: kill, HE not blocked: and/but the original question gave a specific situation and why the block didnt get credit: and how to stat the sitiation
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Post by mikegarrison on Nov 12, 2022 21:21:57 GMT -5
There is no indication from the ref to the stat crew. As a ref, I don't know or care if there is a stats crew, where they are or what they know. It isn't part of the job description. I dont believe we are saying the ref. Is signaling for stats crew: the ref is signaling how the rally ends: block: kill, HE not blocked: and/but the original question gave a specific situation and why the block didnt get credit: and how to stat the sitiation I don't understand what you are saying. Please clarify.
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Post by dodger on Nov 12, 2022 21:23:41 GMT -5
Why is it in high school volleyball, if your kid is going to play 3 rotations, but is off the court for the first play they are not called a starter? In football, it doesn't matter if you are defense or offense as long as you are first string, you are a starter. If you are intended to play you are a starter...why is volleyball lame on this? Theoretically if a player starts on the bench: to be subbed in it is “possible” that the game (set) could end before the player is subbed in: in which case the stat sheet will show they didn't play in that set. Therefor the starters are the players on the court at the time of the first set!
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Post by hookshott on Nov 12, 2022 21:43:05 GMT -5
I dont believe we are saying the ref. Is signaling for stats crew: the ref is signaling how the rally ends: block: kill, HE not blocked: and/but the original question gave a specific situation and why the block didnt get credit: and how to stat the sitiation I don't understand what you are saying. Please clarify. The referee does not signal whether a block or kill ends the rally....they will simply indicate "in" or "out" and who receives the point.
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Post by caz on Nov 12, 2022 21:47:22 GMT -5
Sometimes we (stat folk) just can't see if the contact was made by the blocker or the net. If there's a "4 touches" signal then it's an attack error. Blockers always react a certain excited way if they stuffed someone, so that helps.
A block comes exclusively off an attack, so if an overpass or free ball is swatted down, that is a kill rather than a block.
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Post by hebrooks87 on Nov 12, 2022 22:12:07 GMT -5
I'm confused because now you are saying that the up ref does clearly indicate each time whether or not there was a block touch, so is directly involved in the recording of that stat and it is not up to the interpretation of the stat keeper. That is what I would expect. You attack ball is blocked and hits court: R1 signals ball in : attacker gets attempt and error: 1BA (block assist) is recorded for the 2 blockers. You attack ball the block touches and it is played (covered) by your team-play continues: attacker gets attempt: you attack ball hits the floor but was hit into net:R1 signals with hand (palm facing net) :same signal as net violation- means ball did not clear net: attacker gets attempt and error: no block assist is given. If the ball is attacked near the top of the tape and rebounds to the attacker's side and lands in without being touched by the attacking team, the signal is "in" whether the ball was touched on the block side or not. There is no circumstance in which the signal would be the same as a net violation (unless one of the teams contacted the net illegally). If the ball doesn't clear the net and lands in the attacker's court, the signal would be "in."
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Post by hebrooks87 on Nov 12, 2022 22:18:23 GMT -5
Why is it in high school volleyball, if your kid is going to play 3 rotations, but is off the court for the first play they are not called a starter? In football, it doesn't matter if you are defense or offense as long as you are first string, you are a starter. If you are intended to play you are a starter...why is volleyball lame on this? Because the coach could change their mind and not make the substitution. Football is the odd sport in that it has separate offensive and defensive units. For every other sport, the starters are the players who are on the floor/field to begin the game even though other players may play a lot.
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Post by mikegarrison on Nov 12, 2022 22:18:56 GMT -5
I don't understand what you are saying. Please clarify. The referee does not signal whether a block or kill ends the rally....they will simply indicate "in" or "out" and who receives the point. Yes, well, I agree with that. I was trying to understand the quoted post, which was full of sentence no verb and mysterious : in various places.
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Post by jayj79 on Nov 12, 2022 22:20:25 GMT -5
if they wanted to be totally correct, the only ACTUAL starters in football would be the kickoff team players for one side and the kick return team for the other side.
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Post by jammaster on Nov 14, 2022 12:15:57 GMT -5
Then my vote is they should change their wording to "we will now honor our flag with the performance of the national anthem, then make special note of the six people who are listed on the rotations worksheet prior to libero sub in". That would make more sense than implying those are the only starters. The libero can only *replace* a player who is on the court, so by definition, she cannot start. (Although... pretty sure she gets counted as a starter.) A player who subs into the front (or back) row after at least one point has been scored cannot be said to be starting ... again, pretty much by definition. Cool, then pretty much by definition football only has starters on one of the kickoff teams and the other team's kick off return and baseball has 9 starters on one squad and 1 on the other. At risk of this being all about me, I maintain this is the wrong way to look at things.
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Post by jayj79 on Nov 14, 2022 12:46:11 GMT -5
The libero can only *replace* a player who is on the court, so by definition, she cannot start. (Although... pretty sure she gets counted as a starter.) A player who subs into the front (or back) row after at least one point has been scored cannot be said to be starting ... again, pretty much by definition. Cool, then pretty much by definition football only has starters on one of the kickoff teams and the other team's kick off return and baseball has 9 starters on one squad and 1 on the other. At risk of this being all about me, I maintain this is the wrong way to look at things. at the start of the contest, in baseball/softball, a lineup card has to be submitted by both teams listing the 9 players and their batting order (as well as the player that will be fielding but not batting in the majority of leagues that allow the DH/DP). Similarly, volleyball teams have to submit a rotation sheet that lists the 6 starting players (as well as the designated libero(s), I assume; though I've never actually looked at such a sheet). I don't believe there is any commitment to who will sub in or out needed on that initial rotation sheet. Football is another beast entirely and there are plenty of other things about football that don't really make sense logically.
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Post by jayj79 on Nov 14, 2022 12:58:35 GMT -5
sometimes I think it would be interesting to compare the ratios of team points in each match gained via: - kills (and aces, since an ace is similar to a kill from the service line) - blocks - unforced errors by the other team (attack errors other than being blocked, service errors, BHEs, net contact, rotation faults, etc.)
just to see how those ratios vary across different matches. (perhaps coaches do look at analytics like that, I'm just a fan who doesn't see much of the behind-the-scenes stuff like that)
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Post by stevehorn on Nov 14, 2022 13:39:24 GMT -5
The libero can only *replace* a player who is on the court, so by definition, she cannot start. (Although... pretty sure she gets counted as a starter.) A player who subs into the front (or back) row after at least one point has been scored cannot be said to be starting ... again, pretty much by definition. Cool, then pretty much by definition football only has starters on one of the kickoff teams and the other team's kick off return and baseball has 9 starters on one squad and 1 on the other. At risk of this being all about me, I maintain this is the wrong way to look at things. In football, "starter" is not an official term in that a team does not have to specify who is on the field for the first play and subs do not report to refs (except one case in pro football) or an official stat person when they want to enter the game. "Starter" in football is basically a team depth chart designation, not an official game term. Sometimes a "starter" may not even be on the field for the first offensive or defensive play if the team is using a less common formation on the first play. Starter is an official term in volleyball (and several other sports) because the coach must specify which players are starting the set on the floor and in which position. Now that doesn't prevent a coach from having an "unofficial" starting lineup where he also specifies specific substitutions (2nd OH, 2nd setter & 2nd opposite in a 6-2, DSs, etc.)
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Post by justahick on Nov 14, 2022 14:25:49 GMT -5
sometimes I think it would be interesting to compare the ratios of team points in each match gained via: - kills (and aces, since an ace is similar to a kill from the service line) - blocks - unforced errors by the other team (attack errors other than being blocked, service errors, BHEs, net contact, rotation faults, etc.) just to see how those ratios vary across different matches. (perhaps coaches do look at analytics like that, I'm just a fan who doesn't see much of the behind-the-scenes stuff like that) Here's a start to that rabbit hole. It doesn't have a lot of the actual stats, but Joe Trinsey does a very good job getting into the weeds of the analysis. Joe is a regular contributor here - can't remember his exact user name but it is some variation of his name (JTrinsey maybe?) smartervolley.substack.com/
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