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Post by HawaiiVB on Nov 21, 2023 20:13:13 GMT -5
To the winners goes the spoils. With the inaugural championships, is there even an official regular-season champion anyway?
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Post by volleyguy on Nov 21, 2023 20:16:30 GMT -5
To the winners goes the spoils. With the inaugural championships, is there even an official regular-season champion anyway? Yes, there is Big West Conference Champion (the #1 seed in the tournament), a Big West Conference Tournament Champion (and Automatic Qualifier). |
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Post by volleyguy on Nov 21, 2023 20:20:05 GMT -5
The immediate purpose of the BWCT is to award the AQ, and possibly help and not hurt the conference teams with at-large chance. Longer term purpose for the tournament is 'showcase' and 'grow' BW WVB. Yes, '4' is conveniently optimal for this year as we have four BWC teams < 100 RPI. The RPI 100 benchmark follows NCAA selection committee 'wisdom'. Their nitty gritty, their grouping highlighting losses over 100 RPI. They could have picked RPI 75, but they didn't, possibly they like round numbers. I don't think you'd suggest that we vary the number of teams BWCT eligible each year, and I'd agree. So we need to pick an optimal size for the tournament. And, we don't 'showcase' the BWC by sending the NCAAT non-competitive bid stealers, I think you'd agree. The fan and player interest would quickly become derision. So conventional NCAA 'wisdom' suggests the optimal benchmark cut-off be around RPI 100. Teams with worse RPI being totally non-competitive for the NCAAT 'at-large' and generally 1st round fodder for the top 32 teams. Agree we don't know the future but we do know the past. Going back to 2016 no more than four BWC teams have been < 100 RPI in a season. Besides this year, it last happened in 2016. Hawai'i got the AQ that year and none received an at-large. Without a tournament this year, we'd again have just one AQ and that's it. With the tournament, there is an opportunity for an AQ and an at-large. The odds of that type of outcome increases when the tournament size is minimized to a group sized to those with NCAAT competitiveness. The odds decrease when the tournament is expanded to increase participation to those with RPI beyond that benchmark. Expand it too large and the extra participation invites derision and mockery. The Big West compromised from the optimal four team format that recent BWC historical strength suggested, and decided on a six-team format with the hope that it drives sufficient participation and interest from the mid and bottom of the conference to help them grow their programs. If conference strength improves to regularly support five teams in the six-team BWCT all with RPI <= 100, say within the next four years, then I can agree they optimally sized the tournament. I'm not entirely in disagreement with much of what you say. but again, your premise is not the premise of why the Big West is having a BWCT. It's simply not. coming at it from the angle of 'doing as much as possible to secure berths' IS NOT what the BWCT is based on. So if you think that is what is should be based on, then contact the coaches and league. And frankly, what you've provided is along the lines of 'what can the BWCT do for HAwaii or we don't want it' swarm that didn't want it in the first place. you seem to be evaluating almost everything on the BWCT doing as much as possible to help the selection bubble teams. The BWCT isn't designed for that, and I actually agree it shouldn't, that's NOT nor SHOULD IT BE the purpose. Now, it does and can provide some benefit to that, and how well that happens will vary from year to year. the primary purpose is to generate interest in the volleyball in the conference and franlky, in the BWCT tournament itself. It's hard to argue that this year's BWCT is not accomplishing that! The BWCT is giving the conference additional visibility and kept up more interest to the very last game for 7 (almost 8) teams, because of UCSD's situation. That's good. The seeds get a distinct advantage, the at-large bubble teams have an opportunity to add a good RPI win or two, and also get a shot at an at-large. Thats good. Now, is there some chance a team like SB could drop and get the 'shaft' from the BWCT? remote this year, and sooner or later it will happen likely, but hopefully not or rarely. Certainly there are 4 teams (Beach, Irvine, Poly, Davis) that have zilch shot at an at-large without a BWCT, and one, Hawaii with a questionable shot. we can argue till the cows come home about a 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 11 team tournament all we want. every year the optimal field for at-large 'help' will in fact vary. the 6 teams is a reasonable, not optimal, attempt towards that. It's not perfect, I'm sure you'd agree. what it does do is the primary purpose. so in terms of supproting both goals, I think 6 is better. usually teams with 0.500 winning record or better will be in the BWCT, and while 1 or 2 might not be great for RPI, so be it. again, if you want the Big West to do something to 'boost' RPIs of top teams, then I'd argue a conference tournament isn't really the vehicle to do that, go to relegation of teams in divisions and make the lowest 5, have to 'earn' their way up into a higher relegation division. if you want the BWCT to basically be an at-large boost then yeah, 3 or 4 teams might be best, but again, that is not the goal of the BWCT, it's simply not. I'm not clear on what you think the goal of having a tournament is? There are a lot of justifications thrown around (like revenue and "generating interest"), but the only reason to have a conference tournament is to provide more teams with the possibility of post season play. |
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Post by wahinefan on Nov 21, 2023 20:22:00 GMT -5
Since the Regular season champion does not really mean much, the BWC should do this vote after the BWC Tournament. It is only fair, since whoever wins the BWC Tournament gets the automatic entry into the NCAA Tournament. The Regular season champion does not even get that. What happens if the Regular season champion should not even get pass the semi-final match, what does that say about these awards.
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Post by beachgrad on Nov 21, 2023 20:34:05 GMT -5
Since the Regular season champion does not really mean much, the BWC should do this vote after the BWC Tournament. It is only fair, since whoever wins the BWC Tournament gets the automatic entry into the NCAA Tournament. The Regular season champion does not even get that. What happens if the Regular season champion should not even get pass the semi-final match, what does that say about these awards. I think the reason they do not is the conference tournament is extra matches only for about half the teams and would skew the stats and not be apples to apples. |
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Post by BeachbytheBay on Nov 21, 2023 20:41:06 GMT -5
I'm not entirely in disagreement with much of what you say. but again, your premise is not the premise of why the Big West is having a BWCT. It's simply not. coming at it from the angle of 'doing as much as possible to secure berths' IS NOT what the BWCT is based on. So if you think that is what is should be based on, then contact the coaches and league. And frankly, what you've provided is along the lines of 'what can the BWCT do for HAwaii or we don't want it' swarm that didn't want it in the first place. you seem to be evaluating almost everything on the BWCT doing as much as possible to help the selection bubble teams. The BWCT isn't designed for that, and I actually agree it shouldn't, that's NOT nor SHOULD IT BE the purpose. Now, it does and can provide some benefit to that, and how well that happens will vary from year to year. the primary purpose is to generate interest in the volleyball in the conference and franlky, in the BWCT tournament itself. It's hard to argue that this year's BWCT is not accomplishing that! The BWCT is giving the conference additional visibility and kept up more interest to the very last game for 7 (almost 8) teams, because of UCSD's situation. That's good. The seeds get a distinct advantage, the at-large bubble teams have an opportunity to add a good RPI win or two, and also get a shot at an at-large. Thats good. Now, is there some chance a team like SB could drop and get the 'shaft' from the BWCT? remote this year, and sooner or later it will happen likely, but hopefully not or rarely. Certainly there are 4 teams (Beach, Irvine, Poly, Davis) that have zilch shot at an at-large without a BWCT, and one, Hawaii with a questionable shot. we can argue till the cows come home about a 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 11 team tournament all we want. every year the optimal field for at-large 'help' will in fact vary. the 6 teams is a reasonable, not optimal, attempt towards that. It's not perfect, I'm sure you'd agree. what it does do is the primary purpose. so in terms of supproting both goals, I think 6 is better. usually teams with 0.500 winning record or better will be in the BWCT, and while 1 or 2 might not be great for RPI, so be it. again, if you want the Big West to do something to 'boost' RPIs of top teams, then I'd argue a conference tournament isn't really the vehicle to do that, go to relegation of teams in divisions and make the lowest 5, have to 'earn' their way up into a higher relegation division. if you want the BWCT to basically be an at-large boost then yeah, 3 or 4 teams might be best, but again, that is not the goal of the BWCT, it's simply not. I'm not clear on what you think the goal of having a tournament is? There are a lot of justifications thrown around (like revenue and "generating interest"), but the only reason to have a conference tournament is to provide more teams with the possibility of post season play. if you think that is the only reason, and if the coaches think that is the only reason, then yes they really should not have a conf tournament, lol. but, that is not the primary reason the Big West is having a BWCT, it's simply not. and frankly not what should be the primary purpose. it is designed to provide opportunity to help resumes, by design. it does not guarantee that though, or to be the most optimal way, but it's actually pretty close. the primary purpose of the BWCT is to improve volleyball and volleyball interest in the Big West. If one thinks the only way to improve Volleyball is devise some 'gaming' algorythm' to making the conf tournment statistically improve the odds for at-larges the most, then no, it doesn't again, if that's the goal, the Big West should go to relegation. I don't know why that is so hard to process. and again, the BWCT is generating more interest in Volleyball across the leauge throughout November, so it's accomplishing what it set out to. feel free to contact the league office and especially the coaches and complain that the BWCT is not 'optimal' for 'fill in the blank school' as "fill in the blank university fan' thinks it should be. my god, and Hawaii is almost set to be a perpetual host, further increasing their odds due to HCA, and the Hawaii swarm still won't be satisfied. I give up, let's just change the by laws to make Hawaii the AQ every year just because, lol just smh at this stuff |
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Post by Barefoot In Kailua on Nov 21, 2023 20:45:38 GMT -5
I'm not clear on what you think the goal of having a tournament is? There are a lot of justifications thrown around (like revenue and "generating interest"), but the only reason to have a conference tournament is to provide more teams with the possibility of post season play. my god, and Hawaii is almost set to be a perpetual host, further increasing their odds due to HCA, and the Hawaii swarm still won't be satisfied. I give up, let's just change the by laws to make Hawaii the AQ every year just because, lol Hawai'i isn't hosting the BWCT until 2026. |
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Post by HawaiiVB on Nov 21, 2023 21:14:10 GMT -5
my god, and Hawaii is almost set to be a perpetual host, further increasing their odds due to HCA, and the Hawaii swarm still won't be satisfied. I give up, let's just change the by laws to make Hawaii the AQ every year just because, lol Hawai'i isn't hosting the BWCT until 2026. Let's be clear, why have the tournament? once you get those answers, then the next question would be, okay how do we determine who gets to host it? once you get those answers, the next question would be, how will we fund this tournament? In the end, it would be something like this... let's have a tournament, to increase the Big West's footprint in this sport, because this tournament could provide more exposure and coverage to the Big West kind of like championship week or March madness, and all the hype, etc. Does it bring more positives than negatives? Depends on who you ask. If the conference is not funding it fully, then what schools would be willing to invest in hosting it? Could every school host it to the satisfaction of the Big West? Not so sure. What you will find is that a few schools will end up hosting it, for various reasons. I guess the hope is to bring everyone up from the bottom and build the conference up as well. Without football, the Big West is a ghost to most people. If the Big West wants to be relevant, football has to be sponsored. I don’t know what will happen with the BW women’s volleyball championship if the host schools lose money year after year. |
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Post by ManapuaSurprise on Nov 21, 2023 21:28:18 GMT -5
my god, and Hawaii is almost set to be a perpetual host, further increasing their odds due to HCA, and the Hawaii swarm still won't be satisfied. I give up, let's just change the by laws to make Hawaii the AQ every year just because, lol Hawai'i isn't hosting the BWCT until 2026. I am curious if the BWCT will be in the black or red for the first few tournaments. I know at least for men's, the tournament was in the black only when they held it in Stan Sheriff |
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Post by noblesol on Nov 21, 2023 21:28:29 GMT -5
The immediate purpose of the BWCT is to award the AQ, and possibly help and not hurt the conference teams with at-large chance. Longer term purpose for the tournament is 'showcase' and 'grow' BW WVB. Yes, '4' is conveniently optimal for this year as we have four BWC teams < 100 RPI. The RPI 100 benchmark follows NCAA selection committee 'wisdom'. Their nitty gritty, their grouping highlighting losses over 100 RPI. They could have picked RPI 75, but they didn't, possibly they like round numbers. I don't think you'd suggest that we vary the number of teams BWCT eligible each year, and I'd agree. So we need to pick an optimal size for the tournament. And, we don't 'showcase' the BWC by sending the NCAAT non-competitive bid stealers, I think you'd agree. The fan and player interest would quickly become derision. So conventional NCAA 'wisdom' suggests the optimal benchmark cut-off be around RPI 100. Teams with worse RPI being totally non-competitive for the NCAAT 'at-large' and generally 1st round fodder for the top 32 teams. Agree we don't know the future but we do know the past. Going back to 2016 no more than four BWC teams have been < 100 RPI in a season. Besides this year, it last happened in 2016. Hawai'i got the AQ that year and none received an at-large. Without a tournament this year, we'd again have just one AQ and that's it. With the tournament, there is an opportunity for an AQ and an at-large. The odds of that type of outcome increases when the tournament size is minimized to a group sized to those with NCAAT competitiveness. The odds decrease when the tournament is expanded to increase participation to those with RPI beyond that benchmark. Expand it too large and the extra participation invites derision and mockery. The Big West compromised from the optimal four team format that recent BWC historical strength suggested, and decided on a six-team format with the hope that it drives sufficient participation and interest from the mid and bottom of the conference to help them grow their programs. If conference strength improves to regularly support five teams in the six-team BWCT all with RPI <= 100, say within the next four years, then I can agree they optimally sized the tournament. I'm not entirely in disagreement with much of what you say. but again, your premise is not the premise of why the Big West is having a BWCT. It's simply not. coming at it from the angle of 'doing as much as possible to secure berths' IS NOT what the BWCT is based on. So if you think that is what is should be based on, then contact the coaches and league. And frankly, what you've provided is along the lines of 'what can the BWCT do for HAwaii or we don't want it' swarm that didn't want it in the first place. you seem to be evaluating almost everything on the BWCT doing as much as possible to help the selection bubble teams. The BWCT isn't designed for that, and I actually agree it shouldn't, that's NOT nor SHOULD IT BE the purpose. Now, it does and can provide some benefit to that, and how well that happens will vary from year to year. the primary purpose is to generate interest in the volleyball in the conference and franlky, in the BWCT tournament itself. It's hard to argue that this year's BWCT is not accomplishing that! The BWCT is giving the conference additional visibility and kept up more interest to the very last game for 7 (almost 8) teams, because of UCSD's situation. That's good. The seeds get a distinct advantage, the at-large bubble teams have an opportunity to add a good RPI win or two, and also get a shot at an at-large. Thats good. Now, is there some chance a team like SB could drop and get the 'shaft' from the BWCT? remote this year, and sooner or later it will happen likely, but hopefully not or rarely. Certainly there are 4 teams (Beach, Irvine, Poly, Davis) that have zilch shot at an at-large without a BWCT, and one, Hawaii with a questionable shot. we can argue till the cows come home about a 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 11 team tournament all we want. every year the optimal field for at-large 'help' will in fact vary. the 6 teams is a reasonable, not optimal, attempt towards that. It's not perfect, I'm sure you'd agree. what it does do is the primary purpose. so in terms of supproting both goals, I think 6 is better. usually teams with 0.500 winning record or better will be in the BWCT, and while 1 or 2 might not be great for RPI, so be it. again, if you want the Big West to do something to 'boost' RPIs of top teams, then I'd argue a conference tournament isn't really the vehicle to do that, go to relegation of teams in divisions and make the lowest 5, have to 'earn' their way up into a higher relegation division. if you want the BWCT to basically be an at-large boost then yeah, 3 or 4 teams might be best, but again, that is not the goal of the BWCT, it's simply not. I hear you. You believe that the BWCT is not a vehicle to help competitive teams get to the NCAAT. Primarily it's to be an end to itself. The glory at the end of the BW WVB road for most of the conference. For it to be that, it had to be a six-team format to gather support. And the narrative of purpose has to be that winning the BWCT it's wonderful, it's marvelous, it's awfully nice, it's paradise, it makes life so glamourous, you won't need more, you'll see. |
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Post by justaUHfan on Nov 21, 2023 22:01:08 GMT -5
Ok hear me out. Are the criteria’s for setter of the week different compared to setter of the year. Because if it is based on the “better setter” of the year then why was Lang being voted setter of the week multiple times?
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Post by VT Karen on Nov 21, 2023 22:22:41 GMT -5
Congrats to all who earned all-conference honors and especially those who took home the major awards!
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Post by volleyguy on Nov 21, 2023 22:30:22 GMT -5
I'm not clear on what you think the goal of having a tournament is? There are a lot of justifications thrown around (like revenue and "generating interest"), but the only reason to have a conference tournament is to provide more teams with the possibility of post season play. if you think that is the only reason, and if the coaches think that is the only reason, then yes they really should not have a conf tournament, lol. but, that is not the primary reason the Big West is having a BWCT, it's simply not. and frankly not what should be the primary purpose. it is designed to provide opportunity to help resumes, by design. it does not guarantee that though, or to be the most optimal way, but it's actually pretty close. the primary purpose of the BWCT is to improve volleyball and volleyball interest in the Big West. If one thinks the only way to improve Volleyball is devise some 'gaming' algorythm' to making the conf tournment statistically improve the odds for at-larges the most, then no, it doesn't again, if that's the goal, the Big West should go to relegation. I don't know why that is so hard to process. and again, the BWCT is generating more interest in Volleyball across the leauge throughout November, so it's accomplishing what it set out to. feel free to contact the league office and especially the coaches and complain that the BWCT is not 'optimal' for 'fill in the blank school' as "fill in the blank university fan' thinks it should be. my god, and Hawaii is almost set to be a perpetual host, further increasing their odds due to HCA, and the Hawaii swarm still won't be satisfied. I give up, let's just change the by laws to make Hawaii the AQ every year just because, lol just smh at this stuff How do you know what the purpose of the Big West conference Tournament is? Have you spoken to anyone who actually voted to implement it? |
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Post by BeachbytheBay on Nov 21, 2023 22:39:45 GMT -5
I'm not entirely in disagreement with much of what you say. but again, your premise is not the premise of why the Big West is having a BWCT. It's simply not. coming at it from the angle of 'doing as much as possible to secure berths' IS NOT what the BWCT is based on. So if you think that is what is should be based on, then contact the coaches and league. And frankly, what you've provided is along the lines of 'what can the BWCT do for HAwaii or we don't want it' swarm that didn't want it in the first place. you seem to be evaluating almost everything on the BWCT doing as much as possible to help the selection bubble teams. The BWCT isn't designed for that, and I actually agree it shouldn't, that's NOT nor SHOULD IT BE the purpose. Now, it does and can provide some benefit to that, and how well that happens will vary from year to year. the primary purpose is to generate interest in the volleyball in the conference and franlky, in the BWCT tournament itself. It's hard to argue that this year's BWCT is not accomplishing that! The BWCT is giving the conference additional visibility and kept up more interest to the very last game for 7 (almost 8) teams, because of UCSD's situation. That's good. The seeds get a distinct advantage, the at-large bubble teams have an opportunity to add a good RPI win or two, and also get a shot at an at-large. Thats good. Now, is there some chance a team like SB could drop and get the 'shaft' from the BWCT? remote this year, and sooner or later it will happen likely, but hopefully not or rarely. Certainly there are 4 teams (Beach, Irvine, Poly, Davis) that have zilch shot at an at-large without a BWCT, and one, Hawaii with a questionable shot. we can argue till the cows come home about a 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 11 team tournament all we want. every year the optimal field for at-large 'help' will in fact vary. the 6 teams is a reasonable, not optimal, attempt towards that. It's not perfect, I'm sure you'd agree. what it does do is the primary purpose. so in terms of supproting both goals, I think 6 is better. usually teams with 0.500 winning record or better will be in the BWCT, and while 1 or 2 might not be great for RPI, so be it. again, if you want the Big West to do something to 'boost' RPIs of top teams, then I'd argue a conference tournament isn't really the vehicle to do that, go to relegation of teams in divisions and make the lowest 5, have to 'earn' their way up into a higher relegation division. if you want the BWCT to basically be an at-large boost then yeah, 3 or 4 teams might be best, but again, that is not the goal of the BWCT, it's simply not. I hear you. You believe that the BWCT is not a vehicle to help competitive teams get to the NCAAT. Primarily it's to be an end to itself. The glory at the end of the BW WVB road for most of the conference. For it to be that, it had to be a six-team format to gather support. And the narrative of purpose has to be that winning the BWCT it's wonderful, it's marvelous, it's awfully nice, it's paradise, it makes life so glamourous, you won't need more, you'll see. lol, no, that is NOT what I am saying at all, or believe. your statement about what I believe is incorrect. You can believe what you want. what you stated is incorrect about what I believe. it's pretty funny in it's own right. What I believe is EXACTLY what I wrote, so feel free to read it again if you want. what you just wrote frankly seems to be some hyperbolic nonsense trying to project or infer incorrectly about what I wrote. I'll leave it at that |
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Post by BeachbytheBay on Nov 21, 2023 22:46:56 GMT -5
if you think that is the only reason, and if the coaches think that is the only reason, then yes they really should not have a conf tournament, lol. but, that is not the primary reason the Big West is having a BWCT, it's simply not. and frankly not what should be the primary purpose. it is designed to provide opportunity to help resumes, by design. it does not guarantee that though, or to be the most optimal way, but it's actually pretty close. the primary purpose of the BWCT is to improve volleyball and volleyball interest in the Big West. If one thinks the only way to improve Volleyball is devise some 'gaming' algorythm' to making the conf tournment statistically improve the odds for at-larges the most, then no, it doesn't again, if that's the goal, the Big West should go to relegation. I don't know why that is so hard to process. and again, the BWCT is generating more interest in Volleyball across the leauge throughout November, so it's accomplishing what it set out to. feel free to contact the league office and especially the coaches and complain that the BWCT is not 'optimal' for 'fill in the blank school' as "fill in the blank university fan' thinks it should be. my god, and Hawaii is almost set to be a perpetual host, further increasing their odds due to HCA, and the Hawaii swarm still won't be satisfied. I give up, let's just change the by laws to make Hawaii the AQ every year just because, lol just smh at this stuff How do you know what the purpose of the Big West conference Tournament is? Have you spoken to anyone who actually voted to implement it? Q1: because I listened to 3 sources, but then I could be wrong Q2: no. only to someone in one org that votes and talks to one who voted carry on do you know what the purpose of the Big West Conference Tournament is? I find it interesting the MVB BWCT seems to be ok with the swarm, yet every year there are a couple teams that are basically 'resume killers' in the MVB BWCT, yet I don't hear clamoring for the BWCT to go to 4 teams, lol |
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