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Post by slxpress on Aug 6, 2023 9:57:04 GMT -5
I wonder what it takes to drop their power conference status?
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Post by Gladys Kravitz on Aug 6, 2023 10:01:49 GMT -5
A few points about this graph: First, it's specific to Washington. But certainly a similar story for UO/USC/UCLA. Second, the distances are not necessarily airport to airport. For Washington in the PAC, the longest road trip is shorter than the shortest road trip among the "new" B1G schools. Yes, I'm sure most young people in their late teens and early 20s can handle a few extra hours each week of air travel. But it's still a lot of extra time. And, at the risk of dragging politics into the main board - it seems to me that major institutions of higher learning should be working on ways to immediately reduce air travel, not add to it. But, you know, football money. People keep saying football money, and yes, that’s at the heart of it, but it’s a little more than just chasing after every extra dollar. USC and UCLA are chasing every extra dollar. Lincoln Riley will flee to the NFL after this season.
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Post by bbg95 on Aug 6, 2023 10:05:32 GMT -5
I wonder what it takes to drop their power conference status? Not totally sure. From a practical standpoint, the way that the CFP expansion is structured wouldn't grant the Pac an auto-bid, as those bids go to the top six conference champions regardless of power status. But there are things like the Rose Bowl to think about.
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Post by bayarea on Aug 6, 2023 10:05:34 GMT -5
The Big West has 11 public schools, 10 of which are from California. Would that be a good fit for Cal? And football plays as an independent. Stanford is harder. The WCC is at 9 teams so they could easily take 1 more, but is that a fit? And does this help or hurt the MPSF? Oregon St and Washington St fit the MWC. They are going to need to cut about $25 million in expenses so lots of coaches not getting renewed, but I think they have a suitable fit. Stanford is not a WCC fit. WCC is religious, and not really all that high academically. This is an interesting perception. Stanford is obviously the academic outlier in the Pac-12, and you are right that their academic fit is with the Ivy League... half of the former Pac-12 schools are nowhere near their academic fit. And the current WCC schools are religious affiilated, except for Pacific. But academics of the Pac-12, B1G or WCC...not so different of a spread. A quick look at the current US News rankings: Stanford #3 Cal and UCLA tied at #20 USC tied at #25 Pepperdine, Santa Clara and Washington all tied at #55 LMU #77 Gonzaga #83 San Diego and Colorado tied at #97 Arizona, Oregon, Utah and U San Francisco all tied at #105 and the rest of the former Pac-12 are lower ASU #121 OSU #151 WSU #212 The B1G is led by Northwestern #10 Michigan #25 Wisconsin #38 Illinois #41 Ohio State #49 Purdue #51 Rutgers, Maryland tied at #55 Minnesota #62Indiana #72 Michigan State and Penn State tied at #77 Iowa #83 Nebraska #151 (tied with Pacific) I like the idea of Stanford disassociating football from their other athletics if they move to another conference. They really struggle to recruit in football relative to other schools, due to their stringent academic standards, and the football fanbase is weak. But their school pride is tied up in all the Olympic sports and their decades long (26 total) streak of winning the Director's Cup. They need to find a competitive conference where they can continue to be challenged in those sports.
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Post by Gladys Kravitz on Aug 6, 2023 10:11:57 GMT -5
Stanford is not a WCC fit. WCC is religious, and not really all that high academically. I like the idea of Stanford disassociating football from their other athletics if they move to another conference. They really struggle to recruit in football relative to other schools, due to their stringent academic standards, and the football fanbase is weak. But their school pride is tied up in all the Olympic sports and their decades long (26 total) streak of winning the Director's Cup. They need to find a competitive conference where they can continue to be challenged in those sports. Stanford and Cal would be a great fit for the WCC if they figure out the football angle and go someplace else.
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Post by BeachbytheBay on Aug 6, 2023 10:49:53 GMT -5
Stanford is not a WCC fit. WCC is religious, and not really all that high academically. This is an interesting perception. Stanford is obviously the academic outlier in the Pac-12, and you are right that their academic fit is with the Ivy League... half of the former Pac-12 schools are nowhere near their academic fit. And the current WCC schools are religious affiilated, except for Pacific. But academics of the Pac-12, B1G or WCC...not so different of a spread. A quick look at the current US News rankings: Stanford #3 Cal and UCLA tied at #20 USC tied at #25 Pepperdine, Santa Clara and Washington all tied at #55 LMU #77 Gonzaga #83 San Diego and Colorado tied at #97 Arizona, Oregon, Utah and U San Francisco all tied at #105 and the rest of the former Pac-12 are lower ASU #121 OSU #151 WSU #212 The B1G is led by Northwestern #10 Michigan #25 Wisconsin #38 Illinois #41 Ohio State #49 Purdue #51 Rutgers, Maryland tied at #55 Minnesota #62Indiana #72 Michigan State and Penn State tied at #77 Iowa #83 Nebraska #151 (tied with Pacific) I like the idea of Stanford disassociating football from their other athletics if they move to another conference. They really struggle to recruit in football relative to other schools, due to their stringent academic standards, and the football fanbase is weak. But their school pride is tied up in all the Olympic sports and their decades long (26 total) streak of winning the Director's Cup. They need to find a competitive conference where they can continue to be challenged in those sports. where in hades do you get Pepperdine at #55? in what valid or respected study is that rating from? Any study that equates Pepperdine with Washington is suspect. Pepperine's admission rate is not selective, unless one uses money as a selection criteria. I'm not saying Pepperdine is a poor academic school, just it pales compared to the UCs (especially the UCs in the Big West & Cal Poly) and really isn't superior to Long Beach and maybe Fullerton in selectivity and academics. The Big West is above the WCC, certainly with the top half of the Big West. Granted, adding Bakersfield was an abomination for the BIg West. In terms of acadmeics, the Big West: 3 of the 34 Forbes 5 star acadmeic value Universities (Cal Poly, UCSD, UCI; Cal Poly being the only non researchh based university) 4 of the top 50 rated Universities (UCI, UCSB, UC Davis, UCSD) 3 of the top five Cal States (Cal Poly #1, Beach, Fullerton) 7 highly rated or reseach universities. (the five UCs, Hawaii, & Cal Poly) one could argue with the Pac-12 gone, teh Big West is actually arguably at #3 in the COuntry after the B1G & Ivy League. Adding Cal & Stanford for Olympic Sports would make the Big West rival the B1G in terms of academics, notwithstanding theh Bakersield academic anchor. point is depending on what Cal & Stanford do for football, the Big West is maybe the best fit for Olympic sports (and extremely low cost) for Cal especially and both Stanford and Cal. Stanford's profile of course really fits for B1G & Ivy League, just the question of whether those two would take or want Stanford remains to be seen. I do think the B1G while saying they are done, I can see exploring Cal & Stanford, and also re-kicking the tires for their ultimate goal of adding Stanford and Notre Dame.
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Post by slxpress on Aug 6, 2023 10:57:01 GMT -5
People keep saying football money, and yes, that’s at the heart of it, but it’s a little more than just chasing after every extra dollar. USC and UCLA are chasing every extra dollar. Lincoln Riley will flee to the NFL after this season. They’re chasing every extra $30 to $40 million. Lincoln Riley was an outstanding hire. You’re not going to outspend OU for the next Lincoln Riley without Big 10 money. It’s a choice of what level of athletic performance do you want your department to be able to have. Now, I can easily argue that the gross amounts of money involved with college athletics creates cognitive dissonances within what’s supposed to be an institution dedicated to academics, but we passed that rubicon long ago. Specifically on 1984 when the Supreme Court struck down the NCAA’s right to negotiate television contracts and conferences began negotiating their own media rights. Now it’s a matter of what side of the equation do you want to be on. The fact of the matter is membership in either the Big 10 or SEC gives those ptragrams huge competitive advantages. Without them it’s practically impossible to compete on an even footing.
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Post by fromonhigh on Aug 6, 2023 11:03:39 GMT -5
The following article has one of the best titles and introductory lines I’ve read in a long time. Too bad the article itself didn’t quite deliver. What I did glean from the article is that the presidents of UW and UO didn’t have the courtesy to inform the other Presidents of their decision; they just didn’t show up. If true that wreaks of hubris or poor ethics. www.outkick.com/pac-12-collapse-details-arizona-state-washington-oregon/
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Post by bayarea on Aug 6, 2023 11:18:17 GMT -5
This is an interesting perception. Stanford is obviously the academic outlier in the Pac-12, and you are right that their academic fit is with the Ivy League... half of the former Pac-12 schools are nowhere near their academic fit. And the current WCC schools are religious affiilated, except for Pacific. But academics of the Pac-12, B1G or WCC...not so different of a spread. A quick look at the current US News rankings: Stanford #3 Cal and UCLA tied at #20 USC tied at #25 Pepperdine, Santa Clara and Washington all tied at #55 LMU #77 Gonzaga #83 San Diego and Colorado tied at #97 Arizona, Oregon, Utah and U San Francisco all tied at #105 and the rest of the former Pac-12 are lower ASU #121 OSU #151 WSU #212 The B1G is led by Northwestern #10 Michigan #25 Wisconsin #38 Illinois #41 Ohio State #49 Purdue #51 Rutgers, Maryland tied at #55 Minnesota #62Indiana #72 Michigan State and Penn State tied at #77 Iowa #83 Nebraska #151 (tied with Pacific) I like the idea of Stanford disassociating football from their other athletics if they move to another conference. They really struggle to recruit in football relative to other schools, due to their stringent academic standards, and the football fanbase is weak. But their school pride is tied up in all the Olympic sports and their decades long (26 total) streak of winning the Director's Cup. They need to find a competitive conference where they can continue to be challenged in those sports. where in hades do you get Pepperdine at #55? in what valid or respected study is that rating from? Any study that equates Pepperdine with Washington is suspect. Pepperine's admission rate is not selective, unless one uses money as a selection criteria. I'm not saying Pepperdine is a poor academic school, just it pales compared to the UCs (especially the UCs in the Big West & Cal Poly) and really isn't superior to Long Beach and maybe Fullerton in selectivity and academics. The Big West is above the WCC, certainly with the top half of the Big West. Granted, adding Bakersfield was an abomination for the BIg West. In terms of acadmeics, the Big West: 3 of the 34 Forbes 5 star acadmeic value Universities (Cal Poly, UCSD, UCI; Cal Poly being the only non researchh based university) 4 of the top 50 rated Universities (UCI, UCSB, UC Davis, UCSD) 3 of the top five Cal States (Cal Poly #1, Beach, Fullerton) 7 highly rated or reseach universities. (the five UCs, Hawaii, & Cal Poly) one could argue with the Pac-12 gone, teh Big West is actually arguably at #3 in the COuntry after the B1G & Ivy League. Adding Cal & Stanford for Olympic Sports would make the Big West rival the B1G in terms of academics, notwithstanding theh Bakersield academic anchor. point is depending on what Cal & Stanford do for football, the Big West is maybe the best fit for Olympic sports (and extremely low cost) for Cal especially and both Stanford and Cal. Stanford's profile of course really fits for B1G & Ivy League, just the question of whether those two would take or want Stanford remains to be seen. I do think the B1G while saying they are done, I can see exploring Cal & Stanford, and also re-kicking the tires for their ultimate goal of adding Stanford and Notre Dame. Just quoting US News rankings, which can be a bit arbitrary. My personal guess is that Stanford considers themselves 'above' most conferences, except prob. B1G. I don't think Stanford considers most of these Big West schools other than the UC's to be in their league. But, perhaps beggars can't be choosers. US News Big West rankings www.usnews.com/best-colleges : UCSB #32 UCI and UCSD #34 UC Davis #38 UCR #89 CSU Long Beach #137 Hawaii and CSU Fullerton tied at #166 CSU Fresno #250 Cal Poly is #2 ranked Regional University (West) CSUN is #32 regional university west Bakersfield is #60 regional university west
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Post by tomclen on Aug 6, 2023 11:35:45 GMT -5
Question for the Stanford "in-the-knows":
They tried recently to eliminate some sports programs. Would they consider focusing on olmpic sports and eliminating football?
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Post by Gladys Kravitz on Aug 6, 2023 12:17:03 GMT -5
Just quoting US News rankings, which can be a bit arbitrary. My personal guess is that Stanford considers themselves 'above' most conferences, except prob. B1G. Stanford and Cal athletes would love the travel arrangements if they joined the WCC. USF, Santa Clara and St Mary's all one hour drive. LMU and Pepperdine 1 hour flight. Longest road trip to Gonzaga in Washington. No cross country travel.
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Post by mikegarrison on Aug 6, 2023 12:34:32 GMT -5
US News Rankings are quite popular with the general public but are strongly devalued by academics and universities themselves. There are more relevant ranking systems. Related to this, it is like apples and oranges to compare research universities with liberal arts / religious colleges. All the PAC schools (past and continuing) are research universities. None of the WCC schools are.
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Post by redbeard2008 on Aug 6, 2023 13:44:10 GMT -5
The following article has one of the best titles and introductory lines I’ve read in a long time. Too bad the article itself didn’t quite deliver. What I did glean from the article is that the presidents of UW and UO didn’t have the courtesy to inform the other Presidents of their decision; they just didn’t show up. If true that wreaks of hubris or poor ethics. www.outkick.com/pac-12-collapse-details-arizona-state-washington-oregon/When the UO and UW presidents made their Zoom announcements, I couldn't help but hear this playing in the background as a subtext: The Pac-12 presidents have only themselves to blame - they were taken to the cleaners by a flim-flam man, who convinced them they were sitting on a gold mine, but which was only full of coal. The UO prez looked and sounded like a used car salesman, and the UW prez like she was selling cutlery. Both looked like they'd swallowed canaries.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2023 15:26:07 GMT -5
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Post by JJVb on Aug 6, 2023 15:55:15 GMT -5
Given this solely, you think Stanford would be okay to join MW teams in a possible merged MW/PAC, because San Diego State, Fresno State, UNLV, etc provide solid football competition.
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