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Post by guest2 on Oct 9, 2023 0:00:40 GMT -5
The claim that I was lying. You remember your impassioned claim from 30 seconds ago that I was exploiting a tragedy? The 1980s Iraq/Iran war has certainly ended. Well done there. Things certainly have been peaceful in Iraq since then You seem so interested to side track the discussion by inventing a fictious time in the Middle East. Which in any case, doesn't help the argument you claim, there has been no progress towards peace in the Middle East. That is plainly false on the facts. Stop beating around the bush and admit you were wrong. I'm sure the Yemenis, Syrians, Kurds, Palestinians, etc, will be thrilled to hear about all this progress.
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Post by ironhammer on Oct 9, 2023 0:04:29 GMT -5
You seem so interested to side track the discussion by inventing a fictious time in the Middle East. Which in any case, doesn't help the argument you claim, there has been no progress towards peace in the Middle East. That is plainly false on the facts. Stop beating around the bush and admit you were wrong. I'm sure the Yemenis, Syrians, Kurds, Palestinians, etc, will be thrilled to hear about all this progress. Tsk. See this is your problem. A lack of basic comprehension of the argument. I said progress made in peace between the Arabs and the Israelis and between Arab countries. I never said anything about certain particular Arab or some ethnic minority community's self-determination, living standards or their other socioeconomic prospects have improved or not. Or whether they are still oppressed by their own feudal rulers. That is a different argument, which progress between the Israeli and Arabs, or between one Arab country with another, does not solve on its own. Nor did I ever claim it did. You are simply barking up the wrong tree. It is an irrefutable fact that peace, or at least more stable state of relations, is the long-term trend between Israel and the Arab countries, despite many setbacks and bloodsheds. It is also true Middle Eastern countries aren't at each other's throat like Iran and Iraq was in the 80s. That is progress. To say that is not true does make me wonder whether he or she is living in reality or not.
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Post by mikegarrison on Oct 9, 2023 2:29:15 GMT -5
Please explain to me all the choices that Israel offered to the residents of Gaza over the past decade or so. They offered them the choice to not fire thousands of rocket attacks at Israeli, which is what they have done over the past decade. That might have changed policy. I see zero evidence that not firing rockets would have changed any Israeli policies. In the West Bank they have not been firing rockets, and all they get from it is that the Israeli settlements keep squeezing them off of more and more of their land. Bibi has never once suggested that he has the least bit of interest in relieving conditions in Gaza. He could have done so at any time, but instead he chose to keep them bottled up there with no way to leave, no where to leave, almost no infrastructure, almost no medicine -- he's been offering them *nothing*, and nobody else in the world seems to care enough about it to change the situation. Obviously I don't condone terrorist attacks, but f*ck me if I can see that Israel gave them the least bit of reason *not* to do it. The choice they offered was basically "stay in your cage until you die" or "try to fight your way out of it with a massive imbalance of force against you". Historically groups turn to terrorism in the latter case, because it's the only option they have left. Maybe if Israel had treated the West Bank Palestinians better, that would have given some hope to those in Gaza that wanted a peaceful resolution (which is probably the majority of them). But Israel has certainly not given the Palestinians a single reason to expect that peaceful coexistence will be allowed by Israel -- at least not since Rabin was assassinated almost 30 years ago.
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Post by guest2 on Oct 9, 2023 4:55:20 GMT -5
I'm sure the Yemenis, Syrians, Kurds, Palestinians, etc, will be thrilled to hear about all this progress. Tsk. See this is your problem. A lack of basic comprehension of the argument. I said progress made in peace between the Arabs and the Israelis and between Arab countries. I never said anything about certain particular Arab or some ethnic minority community's self-determination, living standards or their other socioeconomic prospects have improved or not. Or whether they are still oppressed by their own feudal rulers. That is a different argument, which progress between the Israeli and Arabs, or between one Arab country with another, does not solve on its own. Nor did I ever claim it did. You are simply barking up the wrong tree. It is an irrefutable fact that peace, or at least more stable state of relations, is the long-term trend between Israel and the Arab countries, despite many setbacks and bloodsheds. It is also true Middle Eastern countries aren't at each other's throat like Iran and Iraq was in the 80s. That is progress. To say that is not true does make me wonder whether he or she is living in reality or not. So you wanted to make a point about Arab-Israeli peace and its progress and you used as an example the Iran/Iraq conflict from the 80s? Interesting, I might have chosen a different example myself
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2023 7:34:40 GMT -5
They offered them the choice to not fire thousands of rocket attacks at Israeli, which is what they have done over the past decade. That might have changed policy. I see zero evidence that not firing rockets would have changed any Israeli policies. In the West Bank they have not been firing rockets, and all they get from it is that the Israeli settlements keep squeezing them off of more and more of their land. Bibi has never once suggested that he has the least bit of interest in relieving conditions in Gaza. He could have done so at any time, but instead he chose to keep them bottled up there with no way to leave, no where to leave, almost no infrastructure, almost no medicine -- he's been offering them *nothing*, and nobody else in the world seems to care enough about it to change the situation. Obviously I don't condone terrorist attacks, but f*ck me if I can see that Israel gave them the least bit of reason *not* to do it. The choice they offered was basically "stay in your cage until you die" or "try to fight your way out of it with a massive imbalance of force against you". Historically groups turn to terrorism in the latter case, because it's the only option they have left. Maybe if Israel had treated the West Bank Palestinians better, that would have given some hope to those in Gaza that wanted a peaceful resolution (which is probably the majority of them). But Israel has certainly not given the Palestinians a single reason to expect that peaceful coexistence will be allowed by Israel -- at least not since Rabin was assassinated almost 30 years ago. And when Jews did this in the Warsaw Ghetto, they were considered heroes and still are today in Israel.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2023 7:38:18 GMT -5
Yes progress. Painfully slow progress with many setbacks. But still progress nevertheless. Read up on modern Middle Eastern history before you come back for your next post. Just out of curiosity how much time have you actually spent in the Middle East? This is as relevant as "Well I served in the military, so shut up." There's a difference between being the guy who cooks food on board the Eisenhower and the guy dropped behind lines for three days waiting for a specific moment. Using the logic of "I lived there for a decade", that means all Americans over the age of 40 are experts in US government and law, right? I mean, they've lived here their entire lives. Heck, Rudy Guiliani knows everything because he's 80. Want him as the authority on the law? (Or Biden if you prefer the other side of the political fence)
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Post by HOLIDAY on Oct 9, 2023 7:39:50 GMT -5
I see zero evidence that not firing rockets would have changed any Israeli policies. In the West Bank they have not been firing rockets, and all they get from it is that the Israeli settlements keep squeezing them off of more and more of their land. Bibi has never once suggested that he has the least bit of interest in relieving conditions in Gaza. He could have done so at any time, but instead he chose to keep them bottled up there with no way to leave, no where to leave, almost no infrastructure, almost no medicine -- he's been offering them *nothing*, and nobody else in the world seems to care enough about it to change the situation. Obviously I don't condone terrorist attacks, but f*ck me if I can see that Israel gave them the least bit of reason *not* to do it. The choice they offered was basically "stay in your cage until you die" or "try to fight your way out of it with a massive imbalance of force against you". Historically groups turn to terrorism in the latter case, because it's the only option they have left. Maybe if Israel had treated the West Bank Palestinians better, that would have given some hope to those in Gaza that wanted a peaceful resolution (which is probably the majority of them). But Israel has certainly not given the Palestinians a single reason to expect that peaceful coexistence will be allowed by Israel -- at least not since Rabin was assassinated almost 30 years ago. And when Jews did this in the Warsaw Ghetto, they were considered heroes and still are today in Israel. They shot women and children while they were sleeping in their beds. They took Holocaust survivors hostage. Let’s not pretend this is honorable. That really makes Democrats and the media look despicable.
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Post by mervinswerved on Oct 9, 2023 7:49:50 GMT -5
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Post by akbar on Oct 9, 2023 7:49:58 GMT -5
The chance for two states to coexist here has long sailed.
It's over....it has no chance.
The people of Gaza need to be taken in by Arab neighbors and the world should assist in this relocation as quickly as possible.
This is the only plan I see that will save lives and mitigate the escalation.
The life there even prior to this attack was miserable.
Israel (Bibi and defense minister) will not listen to anyone as the present government is under attack and WAS under attack from within.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2023 8:41:33 GMT -5
And when Jews did this in the Warsaw Ghetto, they were considered heroes and still are today in Israel. They shot women and children while they were sleeping in their beds. They took Holocaust survivors hostage. Let’s not pretend this is honorable. That really makes Democrats and the media look despicable. THere is NOTHING honorable about what Hamas did, but likewise, there is little honorable in what Israeli policy has been either. You are wanting one side to be the 'good guy' in this. There is no good guy in this. Both sides immediately resort to overdoing it at the first possible opportunity.
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Oct 9, 2023 8:47:34 GMT -5
They offered them the choice to not fire thousands of rocket attacks at Israeli, which is what they have done over the past decade. That might have changed policy. I see zero evidence that not firing rockets would have changed any Israeli policies. In the West Bank they have not been firing rockets, and all they get from it is that the Israeli settlements keep squeezing them off of more and more of their land. Bibi has never once suggested that he has the least bit of interest in relieving conditions in Gaza. He could have done so at any time, but instead he chose to keep them bottled up there with no way to leave, no where to leave, almost no infrastructure, almost no medicine -- he's been offering them *nothing*, and nobody else in the world seems to care enough about it to change the situation. Obviously I don't condone terrorist attacks, but f*ck me if I can see that Israel gave them the least bit of reason *not* to do it. The choice they offered was basically "stay in your cage until you die" or "try to fight your way out of it with a massive imbalance of force against you". Historically groups turn to terrorism in the latter case, because it's the only option they have left. Maybe if Israel had treated the West Bank Palestinians better, that would have given some hope to those in Gaza that wanted a peaceful resolution (which is probably the majority of them). But Israel has certainly not given the Palestinians a single reason to expect that peaceful coexistence will be allowed by Israel -- at least not since Rabin was assassinated almost 30 years ago. Honest question - the Palestine's in Gaza aren't allowed to relocate to another Arab country? How does Israel prevent people from moving out of Gaza?
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Oct 9, 2023 8:50:31 GMT -5
They shot women and children while they were sleeping in their beds. They took Holocaust survivors hostage. Let’s not pretend this is honorable. That really makes Democrats and the media look despicable. THere is NOTHING honorable about what Hamas did, but likewise, there is little honorable in what Israeli policy has been either. You are wanting one side to be the 'good guy' in this. There is no good guy in this. Both sides immediately resort to overdoing it at the first possible opportunity. It appears as though one side wants the extermination of an entire race - and will not stop until that race/religion is eradicated from this world, while the other side doesn't. I don't see how this is remotely comparable.
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Post by mikegarrison on Oct 9, 2023 9:03:51 GMT -5
THere is NOTHING honorable about what Hamas did, but likewise, there is little honorable in what Israeli policy has been either. You are wanting one side to be the 'good guy' in this. There is no good guy in this. Both sides immediately resort to overdoing it at the first possible opportunity. It appears as though one side wants the extermination of an entire race - and will not stop until that race/religion is eradicated from this world, while the other side doesn't. I don't see how this is remotely comparable. Which way do you mean, though? The genocide and extermination has been pretty one-sided for the last 40 years or so -- against the Palestinians.
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Post by mikegarrison on Oct 9, 2023 9:06:58 GMT -5
Honest question - the Palestine's in Gaza aren't allowed to relocate to another Arab country? No, they are not. No countries are welcoming in allowing them to immigrate.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2023 10:21:58 GMT -5
THere is NOTHING honorable about what Hamas did, but likewise, there is little honorable in what Israeli policy has been either. You are wanting one side to be the 'good guy' in this. There is no good guy in this. Both sides immediately resort to overdoing it at the first possible opportunity. It appears as though one side wants the extermination of an entire race - and will not stop until that race/religion is eradicated from this world, while the other side doesn't. I don't see how this is remotely comparable. So you're saying now you oppose Israeli policies?
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