bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Oct 9, 2023 11:08:32 GMT -5
It appears as though one side wants the extermination of an entire race - and will not stop until that race/religion is eradicated from this world, while the other side doesn't. I don't see how this is remotely comparable. Which way do you mean, though? The genocide and extermination has been pretty one-sided for the last 40 years or so -- against the Palestinians. Does Israel have a stated position to exterminate all Muslims? Because it is pretty clear that Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran wants the extermination of all Jews on earth.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2023 11:23:48 GMT -5
Which way do you mean, though? The genocide and extermination has been pretty one-sided for the last 40 years or so -- against the Palestinians. Does Israel have a stated position to exterminate all Muslims? Because it is pretty clear that Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran wants the extermination of all Jews on earth. So statements are louder than actions? So if Haas also said they didn't intend to kill all Jews, what then? Which statement is true? Or are you now taking the position of a radical group (Hamas) and presuming that is the position of the Palestinian government agency as well? Personally, I take deeds as bigger than words, so that when a government shoots journalists or detains 2 million people in an area the size of a county and then declares it won't permit any food in to civilians there, even though Hamas numbers less than 1% of the people, is that government really the good guy? How many innocents has Israel killed compared to Hamas since Hamas's founding in 1987? Exactly. Hamas are horrible and do not have the best interests of Palestinians in mind, but that doesn't make Israel the good guys. Because they aren't.
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Oct 9, 2023 11:27:32 GMT -5
Does Israel have a stated position to exterminate all Muslims? Because it is pretty clear that Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran wants the extermination of all Jews on earth. So statements are louder than actions? So if Haas also said they didn't intend to kill all Jews, what then? Which statement is true? Or are you now taking the position of a radical group (Hamas) and presuming that is the position of the Palestinian government agency as well? Personally, I take deeds as bigger than words, so that when a government shoots journalists or detains 2 million people in an area the size of a county and then declares it won't permit any food in to civilians there, even though Hamas numbers less than 1% of the people, is that government really the good guy? How many innocents has Israel killed compared to Hamas since Hamas's founding in 1987? Exactly. Hamas are horrible and do not have the best interests of Palestinians in mind, but that doesn't make Israel the good guys. Because they aren't. Hamas clearly doesn't have the best interest of Palestinians in mind. But there can be no peace with Hamas in Palestine. There is nothing Israel can do as long as Hamas exists there.
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Post by c4ndlelight on Oct 9, 2023 11:31:35 GMT -5
They offered them the choice to not fire thousands of rocket attacks at Israeli, which is what they have done over the past decade. That might have changed policy. I see zero evidence that not firing rockets would have changed any Israeli policies. In the West Bank they have not been firing rockets, and all they get from it is that the Israeli settlements keep squeezing them off of more and more of their land. Bibi has never once suggested that he has the least bit of interest in relieving conditions in Gaza. He could have done so at any time, but instead he chose to keep them bottled up there with no way to leave, no where to leave, almost no infrastructure, almost no medicine -- he's been offering them *nothing*, and nobody else in the world seems to care enough about it to change the situation. Obviously I don't condone terrorist attacks, but f*ck me if I can see that Israel gave them the least bit of reason *not* to do it. The choice they offered was basically "stay in your cage until you die" or "try to fight your way out of it with a massive imbalance of force against you". Historically groups turn to terrorism in the latter case, because it's the only option they have left. Maybe if Israel had treated the West Bank Palestinians better, that would have given some hope to those in Gaza that wanted a peaceful resolution (which is probably the majority of them). But Israel has certainly not given the Palestinians a single reason to expect that peaceful coexistence will be allowed by Israel -- at least not since Rabin was assassinated almost 30 years ago. It's interesting you bring up the settlements. Israel did back off the settlements under Sharon (so yes, more recently than under Rabin). The idea is no longer feasible in Israeli politics because the Palestinians did not take it as a concession but rather a victory and increased their attacks. You are pointing the finger at Israeli without any context. You say Palestinians are turning to terrorism because of the situation they have been put in, they are not. They are turning to terrorism because they want to push the Israelis back into the sea. Israel has approached the Palestinians in numerous ways over the past 80 years, but the majority of Palestinians are simply not interested in a peaceful solution. I've also bolded a huge inaccuracy - the majority of Palestinians are NOT for a peaceful resolution. The majority of Palestinians want to exterminate all Israelis. If Israel had "treated the West Bank Palestinians better" it would do absolutely nothing to change how they respond. Israelis are in the unfortunate position of having to co-exist with people who will stop at nothing to kill all of them, and you're nitpicking how they are trying to stop the people who want to kill them at all costs from killing them.
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Post by c4ndlelight on Oct 9, 2023 11:33:03 GMT -5
Does Israel have a stated position to exterminate all Muslims? Because it is pretty clear that Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran wants the extermination of all Jews on earth. So statements are louder than actions? So if Haas also said they didn't intend to kill all Jews, what then? Which statement is true? Or are you now taking the position of a radical group (Hamas) and presuming that is the position of the Palestinian government agency as well? Personally, I take deeds as bigger than words, so that when a government shoots journalists or detains 2 million people in an area the size of a county and then declares it won't permit any food in to civilians there, even though Hamas numbers less than 1% of the people, is that government really the good guy? How many innocents has Israel killed compared to Hamas since Hamas's founding in 1987? Exactly. Hamas are horrible and do not have the best interests of Palestinians in mind, but that doesn't make Israel the good guys. Because they aren't. Less than 1%? The last time Gaza had an election, Hamas won an absolute majority of votes. And that's not even counting those who don't support Hamas because they support other groups that are just as, if not, even more violent. You are trying to separate Hamas' actions from Palestinians, when Hamas' actions are in line with what the VAST majority of Palestinians woant.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2023 12:28:59 GMT -5
So statements are louder than actions? So if Haas also said they didn't intend to kill all Jews, what then? Which statement is true? Or are you now taking the position of a radical group (Hamas) and presuming that is the position of the Palestinian government agency as well? Personally, I take deeds as bigger than words, so that when a government shoots journalists or detains 2 million people in an area the size of a county and then declares it won't permit any food in to civilians there, even though Hamas numbers less than 1% of the people, is that government really the good guy? How many innocents has Israel killed compared to Hamas since Hamas's founding in 1987? Exactly. Hamas are horrible and do not have the best interests of Palestinians in mind, but that doesn't make Israel the good guys. Because they aren't. Less than 1%? The last time Gaza had an election, Hamas won an absolute majority of votes. And that's not even counting those who don't support Hamas because they support other groups that are just as, if not, even more violent. You are trying to separate Hamas' actions from Palestinians, when Hamas' actions are in line with what the VAST majority of Palestinians woant. Yes, 1%. That's about 25-30,000 fighters out of a 2,000,000+ population. And now voting for a candidate represents believing everything that candidate says? Hamas' vote totals are for many things beyond wiping out Israelis, mostly because Hamas organized the West Bank and provided semi-consistent utilities after the PAlestinian Authority failed to do so. People will vote for those who provide basic needs almost every time. You also didn't answer the question regarding # of innocents killed by Israel over the past 36 years compared to what Hamas has done. It's far more confused and complicated than you want to see it as.
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Oct 9, 2023 13:06:22 GMT -5
Less than 1%? The last time Gaza had an election, Hamas won an absolute majority of votes. And that's not even counting those who don't support Hamas because they support other groups that are just as, if not, even more violent. You are trying to separate Hamas' actions from Palestinians, when Hamas' actions are in line with what the VAST majority of Palestinians woant. Yes, 1%. That's about 25-30,000 fighters out of a 2,000,000+ population. And now voting for a candidate represents believing everything that candidate says? Hamas' vote totals are for many things beyond wiping out Israelis, mostly because Hamas organized the West Bank and provided semi-consistent utilities after the PAlestinian Authority failed to do so. People will vote for those who provide basic needs almost every time. Sounds like how Nazi's in Germany in the 1930's and 40's represented just a small subset of Germany. The German's voted for the 'good' things the Nazi's did, not the extermination of their Jewish population.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2023 13:31:00 GMT -5
Yes, 1%. That's about 25-30,000 fighters out of a 2,000,000+ population. And now voting for a candidate represents believing everything that candidate says? Hamas' vote totals are for many things beyond wiping out Israelis, mostly because Hamas organized the West Bank and provided semi-consistent utilities after the PAlestinian Authority failed to do so. People will vote for those who provide basic needs almost every time. Sounds like how Nazi's in Germany in the 1930's and 40's represented just a small subset of Germany. The German's voted for the 'good' things the Nazi's did, not the extermination of their Jewish population. There are similarities. There's a book called something like Rehearsal for Fascism (Naziism) that talks about German culture and society at the time. It is less that they saw the Nazis as doing 'good' as they saw everyone else as corrupt, owned by special interests, not looking out for the regular guy (and typing this, man does that sound like Trump), so they went along with the Nazis. And then that was that for Weimar Germany. Part of the real problem here is the Israeli Knesset and that anyone who gets 1% of the vote gets representation. They've got so many parties that it's impossible to form a stable government most of the time. Since immigration there has been heavily Russian/insanely conservative, it has tilted the balance enough that immigrants+radical Orthodox+ Netinyahu supporters have been able to REALLY shift politics.
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Post by mervinswerved on Oct 9, 2023 14:02:32 GMT -5
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Post by mervinswerved on Oct 9, 2023 14:14:03 GMT -5
Indiscriminately bombing civilians while starving them and shutting off their electricity is a war crime.
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Post by thevolleybaker on Oct 9, 2023 14:17:15 GMT -5
Yes, 1%. That's about 25-30,000 fighters out of a 2,000,000+ population. And now voting for a candidate represents believing everything that candidate says? Hamas' vote totals are for many things beyond wiping out Israelis, mostly because Hamas organized the West Bank and provided semi-consistent utilities after the PAlestinian Authority failed to do so. People will vote for those who provide basic needs almost every time. Sounds like how Nazi's in Germany in the 1930's and 40's represented just a small subset of Germany. The German's voted for the 'good' things the Nazi's did, not the extermination of their Jewish population. The Nazis did not obtain a majority before they suspended elections, but it definitely was not a small subset of the population. You also have to keep in mind that there were fascistic parties and groups independent of the Nazis at the time who also enjoyed a good amount of support. As to your other point, they certainly did also vote for what the Nazis did to Jewish people and other marginalized groups in Germany. There were plenty of pogroms, attacks, and book burnings. There were also the Nuremberg Laws, deportations, and the horrendous ghettos. This was all support or at the very least tolerated by a very large part of the population. Hate, extermination, and war were ALWAYS central to Hitler’s campaign. He wrote it all down in Mein Kampf. Early propaganda was also deeply antisemitic, and Europe had a history of antisemitism long before the Nazis.
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Post by mervinswerved on Oct 9, 2023 14:23:57 GMT -5
Indiscriminately bombing civilians while starving them and shutting off their electricity is a war crime. With full funding and support of the United States government, mind you.
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Oct 9, 2023 14:52:14 GMT -5
Sounds like how Nazi's in Germany in the 1930's and 40's represented just a small subset of Germany. The German's voted for the 'good' things the Nazi's did, not the extermination of their Jewish population. The Nazis did not obtain a majority before they suspended elections, but it definitely was not a small subset of the population. You also have to keep in mind that there were fascistic parties and groups independent of the Nazis at the time who also enjoyed a good amount of support. As to your other point, they certainly did also vote for what the Nazis did to Jewish people and other marginalized groups in Germany. There were plenty of pogroms, attacks, and book burnings. There were also the Nuremberg Laws, deportations, and the horrendous ghettos. This was all support or at the very least tolerated by a very large part of the population. Hate, extermination, and war were ALWAYS central to Hitler’s campaign. He wrote it all down in Mein Kampf. Early propaganda was also deeply antisemitic, and Europe had a history of antisemitism long before the Nazis. Not sure you realized my point was that the German people were wrong - the extermination of people isn't good no matter how one wants to justify this. And that the Palestine people are doing the same thing with Hamas.
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bluepenquin
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4-Time VolleyTalk Poster of the Year (2019, 2018, 2017, 2016), All-VolleyTalk 1st Team (2021, 2020, 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016)
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Post by bluepenquin on Oct 9, 2023 14:58:54 GMT -5
Indiscriminately bombing civilians while starving them and shutting off their electricity is a war crime. Well - it is a justified war against an evil aggressor that is 100% committed to killing your entire population. That just invaded your country, killed, raped, and kidnapped women and children in the larges attack on Jews since the Holocaust. You are darn right - you cut off their electricity if able. Typical Hamas action - create the worst crimes against humanity, put civilians in harm way to either prevent retaliation or claim 'war crimes' when there is retaliation. I am not buying the propaganda of these terrorists.
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Post by mervinswerved on Oct 9, 2023 15:04:40 GMT -5
Indiscriminately bombing civilians while starving them and shutting off their electricity is a war crime. Well - it is a justified war against an evil aggressor that is 100% committed to killing your entire population. That just invaded your country, killed, raped, and kidnapped women and children in the larges attack on Jews since the Holocaust. You are darn right - you cut off their electricity if able. Typical Hamas action - create the worst crimes against humanity, put civilians in harm way to either prevent retaliation or claim 'war crimes' when there is retaliation. I am not buying the propaganda of these terrorists. Objectively, what Israel is doing *right now* is a war crime. It isn't excused by whatever Hamas did and they are never justifiable.
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