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Post by joetrinsey on Dec 14, 2023 0:15:13 GMT -5
To rehash a previous thread:
I don't think any sport, as an overall experience, will be dominated by trans athletes. The middle of the bell curve just isn't quite different enough. Even saying club volleyball is dominated by D1 athletes wouldn't really be accurate. Sure, the top end of Nationals is dominated by teams filled with D1 athletes, but the majority of tournaments are won by teams full of 5'9" girls who touch 9'3". The majority of players who play club volleyball will never be on the same court with a girl who will go to play in the P5. Those players mostly play with and against each other, especially once they hit 15 or so.
But the outlier performances are about the tail ends of a distribution and it's a certainty that a population with an average height 4-6" taller (as trans women are compared to female-at-birth) will produce more outlier performances. Therefore, it's inevitable that this will affect the medal rounds at Nationals at some point in the next 5 years or so.
And I'm sure everyone involved will handle it calmly and rationally... [/quote][/div]
I think the elite of the elite male athletes will continue to compete against other males, even if they id as a woman. I think the "[so-and-so female athlete] has an unfair advantage but nobody complains about that," just don't understand right-tail skew. But the athletes who are at that level do and I think they're much more likely to finish their career in male competition and transition after. A good example of this would be Janae Kroc who was a men's world champion as a not-yet-out transgender woman.
But what is inevitable is that just the height difference alone will drastically skew toward a significant minority of impactful trans athletes. Fewer than 1-in-1000 women are 6' tall while about 1-in-5 men are 6' tall. This means that there are almost certainly more 6' transgender girls in high school right now than there are 6' females.
So it's not that one king kong is going to come into women's volleyball and ruin the game. That person is almost certainly going to just play men's volleyball and come out after their career in over. But statistics don't lie and the height differences alone will make a big impact at the right tail of the distribution, which is where women's volleyball draws from.
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Post by houstonbear15 on Dec 14, 2023 0:16:51 GMT -5
I'm sorry... what?! I said that the differences between 'females at birth' who are athletically gifted and 'females at birth' who are not athletically gifted is exponentially larger than the differences between 'females at birth' who are athletically gifted and 'males at birth' who transition at a young age and are athletically gifted. How did you make the leap to "overpower a woman sexually"? According to you,... trans players have no physical advantage...right? If that holds to be true then men attacking women would have no advantage? Same stupid reasoning that you are using frankly because of course a genetic male born a genetic male has a physical advantage and isn't that the entire point that ruins your argument? So a person assigned male at birth automatically has a physical advantage simply because they are male? There are no other traits/characteristics/factors that would impact that? By that logic, would someone with the stature of a man like Kevin Hart have a physical advantage over any D1 volleyball player because he was born a male? |
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Post by HOLIDAY on Dec 14, 2023 0:20:50 GMT -5
According to you,... trans players have no physical advantage...right? If that holds to be true then men attacking women would have no advantage? Same stupid reasoning that you are using frankly because of course a genetic male born a genetic male has a physical advantage and isn't that the entire point that ruins your argument? So a person assigned male at birth automatically has a physical advantage simply because they are male? There are no other traits/characteristics/factors that would impact that? By that logic, would someone with the stature of a man like Kevin Hart have a physical advantage over any D1 volleyball player because he was born a male? Yes, I would say Kevin Hart is stronger than the average or even athletic woman. Who do you think would bench press the most? |
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Post by HOLIDAY on Dec 14, 2023 0:22:05 GMT -5
Now you getting personal? A wise person told me that anyone who gets personal in a debate has lost that debate. Do you ever get personal in debates? Have I on this thread? Yes or no? |
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Post by HOLIDAY on Dec 14, 2023 0:23:24 GMT -5
OK....you are entitled to feel that way but I just don't see the malice in the post like you do. Cool, Hook ‘em. Go Wisconsin |
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Post by HOLIDAY on Dec 14, 2023 0:26:34 GMT -5
Finally some clarity on why Keegan Cook bolted from Washington! Only good thing that came in the rise of MAGA and the christian right and their hatred of all things that don’t fit their narrative is that people exposed themselves as bigoted and homophobic and transphobic. Since then I’ve gone with the belief that once someone shows you who they are you should believe them. This thread has done a nice job of doing that. this honestly is so ignorant on your part it makes me irritated. Anyone who defends women sports is now a bigot and a right wing nut job. Do you know how dumb that sounds? This is exactly what I mean about bullying people who don’t agree with you. It’s always interesting to me that the biggest bullies are the very same people who claim to hate bigotry. |
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Post by houstonbear15 on Dec 14, 2023 0:30:27 GMT -5
So a person assigned male at birth automatically has a physical advantage simply because they are male? There are no other traits/characteristics/factors that would impact that? By that logic, would someone with the stature of a man like Kevin Hart have a physical advantage over any D1 volleyball player because he was born a male? Yes, I would say Kevin Hart is stronger than the average or even athletic woman. Who do you think would bench press the most? I know who would hit a volleyball better. |
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Post by HOLIDAY on Dec 14, 2023 0:35:43 GMT -5
Yes, I would say Kevin Hart is stronger than the average or even athletic woman. Who do you think would bench press the most? I know who would hit a volleyball better. Could be. This was a long time ago but we played in some extremely competitive coed leagues. We had some fantastic men and women who played.The women were former D1 players. But the people that scared me the most and I feared they would hurt someone badly were the young men who could absolutely rocket a ball and bounce it to the ceiling. I think trans athletes absolutely deserve to play in a league created just for them. They deserve that. But they absolutely have an unfair strength advantage over genetic women |
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Post by houstonbear15 on Dec 14, 2023 0:46:11 GMT -5
I know who would hit a volleyball better. Could be. This was a long time ago but we played in some extremely competitive coed leagues. We had some fantastic men and women who played.The women were former D1 players. But the people that scared me the most and I feared they would hurt someone badly were the young men who could absolutely rocket a ball and bounce it to the ceiling. I think trans athletes absolutely deserve to play in a league created just for them. They deserve that. But they absolutely have an unfair strength advantage over genetic women And you don't believe there was a woman in that gym that may have been able to outlift, outjump, or out-endure any man? And I am not talking about men in that gym particularly, but really just a single man. |
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Post by staticb on Dec 14, 2023 1:16:23 GMT -5
FYI, In volleyball a male can't just to play decide to play women's volleyball in D1 NCAA. They need to start transitioning at least a year before they play and submit documentation multiple times a year that their testosterone is below the approved threshold. www.ncaa.org/sports/2022/1/27/transgender-participation-policy.aspxncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/inclusion/lgbtq/SSI_TransgenderSADeadlinesAndThresholdsFall.pdfThere is zero chance of anyone who transitioned and keeping their testosterone levels that low will keep their same vertical or heavy handedness. It's a little different than high school, where you can have athletes at multiple stages of transitioning (or in some cases haven't begun at all). (For the record I think those athletes should still be allowed to participate, but there are potentially greater levels of "unfairness" that I totally get) |
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Post by ay2013 on Dec 14, 2023 1:18:28 GMT -5
Only good thing that came in the rise of MAGA and the christian right and their hatred of all things that don’t fit their narrative is that people exposed themselves as bigoted and homophobic and transphobic. Since then I’ve gone with the belief that once someone shows you who they are you should believe them. This thread has done a nice job of doing that. this honestly is so ignorant on your part it makes me irritated. Anyone who defends women sports is now a bigot and a right wing nut job. Do you know how dumb that sounds? This is exactly what I mean about bullying people who don’t agree with you. It’s always interesting to me that the biggest bullies are the very same people who claim to hate bigotry. Looks to me like you took the comment out of context. Firstly, the poster never said that anyone that "defends womens sports" is bigoted/homophoic/transphobic. The comment was made directly to the poster that insinuated that Keegan Cook left Washington because he doesn't want transpeople to compete in womens sports, or at minimum the school that he coaches at. Leaving aside the fact that Cook (who left for the money) left Washington long before the contact period with the 2025's even began, it's beyond ridiculous to suggest such a thing. The comment was saying that the rise of MAGA, and those adherents, aren't afraid to show you who they are. Some, undoubtably are bigoted/homohpgoic/transphoic, and they now feel empowered to let you know exactly who they are. There is nothing wrong with that, of course, the poster said themselves that it was a good thing. |
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Post by dokterrudi on Dec 14, 2023 1:19:55 GMT -5
My only comment is as follows. Trans rights and trans in sports are two distinct issues. Don’t conflate the two, they are different problems.
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Post by bigredhimbo on Dec 14, 2023 1:21:11 GMT -5
Yes, I would say Kevin Hart is stronger than the average or even athletic woman. Who do you think would bench press the most? I know who would hit a volleyball better. W/ this specific example, the average power 10 middle could wreck him. oh god Rettke and Smrek are each like 2 of Hart's height, and as a short guy I'm allowed to say this lol. Bottom line, far too many generalizations made as not all men are built the same, and trans women aren't all built the same. The committed player this thread has strayed far from is only 6'0 apparently. Imo, falsely characterizing male gender assignment at birth as an automatic throw in their favor as an athlete neglects the individuals competing on either of the net (regardless of gender identity) |
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Post by nederlander on Dec 14, 2023 2:12:15 GMT -5
My only comment is as follows. Trans rights and trans in sports are two distinct issues. Don’t conflate the two, they are different problems. I think this is a wise stance on an issue where there isn’t going to be widespread agreement. Though I would say trans in sports is perhaps a sub-issue of the larger trans rights issue. I don’t think it’s wise though if we end up making trans in sports a litmus test as to where people stand on trans rights in general, or in supporting the trans community. We can’t ignore the debate though, as uncomfortable as it may be, so I hope all sides will show grace and understanding in disagreement. |
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Post by HOLIDAY on Dec 14, 2023 3:55:20 GMT -5
this honestly is so ignorant on your part it makes me irritated. Anyone who defends women sports is now a bigot and a right wing nut job. Do you know how dumb that sounds? This is exactly what I mean about bullying people who don’t agree with you. It’s always interesting to me that the biggest bullies are the very same people who claim to hate bigotry. Looks to me like you took the comment out of context. Firstly, the poster never said that anyone that "defends womens sports" is bigoted/homophoic/transphobic. The comment was made directly to the poster that insinuated that Keegan Cook left Washington because he doesn't want transpeople to compete in womens sports, or at minimum the school that he coaches at. Leaving aside the fact that Cook (who left for the money) left Washington long before the contact period with the 2025's even began, it's beyond ridiculous to suggest such a thing. The comment was saying that the rise of MAGA, and those adherents, aren't afraid to show you who they are. Some, undoubtably are bigoted/homohpgoic/transphoic, and they now feel empowered to let you know exactly who they are. There is nothing wrong with that, of course, the poster said themselves that it was a good thing. Is that really what Keegan Cook thinks? Or did he simply want to keep the integrity of women’s sports and protect women who have worked so hard to perfect the sport? Could it be that he’s the only one that truly is defending the women in this scenario? Do you know what he really thinks deep down about this or simply judging him for not thinking like you do? Have you had a conversation with Keegan Cook? |
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