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Post by stephenasinjin on Mar 12, 2024 11:52:46 GMT -5
Second best defender in the world? Just because they won one tournament?... I don't know how much you know about volleyball because I don't know you but I know that Travis knows quite a lot about it. I've been on the Beach for 40 years, longer than Travis has been alive.
Spend time with guys who played in the 60s and 70s after they didn't play anymore. Played thousands of games, watched tens of thousands of games in person and on video. Been up close with Karch, Sinjin pre-knee, Dodd, AJ, Steffes, Emanuel, Rosie. I know what a top defender in the world looks like, plays like, walks like, and sometimes, thinks like.
I've been noticing de Groot for over a year. Watched about a dozen of his games. It isn't just this tournament. But you can disagree, that's fine. It was absurd for Travis to bundle Immers and de Groot. Different levels entirely. It's clear from the flow of thae conversation that Simon saw it like I do. But what do I know? We all simply form our opinions, based on experience, and write them down for discussion. An internet forum is not place to chill. Putting out bold statements is exactly what generates discussion.
PS. I wrote "one of the two best defenders in the world". Who do you think I think is the other one?
I’m not ready to say #2, and if you really think about it, taking a hard line at #2 is disrespectful; but I’ve been super high on De Groot since 2021. If memory serves it was one of the Cancun events when I first said “Wowzers” (trying to channel my future 60-70 year old self just for you lol). I thought Meeuwsen might dump Brouwer for De Groot at the time. Then De Groot got hurt for like an entire year - back issue I believe. Then Boerhmans got hurt - ankle, I believe a fairly bad break. They started playing again last year and Boerhmans was as not physically back to 100%. I remember Mol hitting OT down the line with ease over Boerhmans during that stretch when previously that was not the case. He appears to be back to 100% and look at them to. As for ranking defenders: 1. Ahman 2. Perusic 3-11 in no particular order: Ahmad, Partain, Losiak, Wickler, De Groot, George, Brouwer, Sorum I guess, Ahman is the most dominant defender we’ve seen since Olympic Gold Bruno at least. Teams try to make Hellvig beat them for perspective and Ahman still manages to have at least 30% of their offensive attempts in sideout, plus his defensive pressure applied is the best in the world. Perusic out of the top 2 after his 2023 season is just misinformed. After those 2 there’s arguments to be made within that next group. Vaulting De Groot above either of those first 2 is discounting real results and operating in fantasy land.
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Post by jeenester on Mar 12, 2024 14:30:18 GMT -5
What is it with volleyball players and making terrible facial hair choices back to the 80s like Magnum PI? the mustaches are spreading like wildfire
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Post by dunninla3 on Mar 12, 2024 14:44:47 GMT -5
I've been noticing de Groot for over a year. \
PS. I wrote "one of the two best defenders in the world". Who do you think I think is the other one?
I’m not ready to say #2, and if you really think about it, taking a hard line at #2 is disrespectful; but I’ve been super high on De Groot since 2021. If memory serves it was one of the Cancun events when I first said “Wowzers” (trying to channel my future 60-70 year old self just for you lol). I thought Meeuwsen might dump Brouwer for De Groot at the time. Then De Groot got hurt for like an entire year - back issue I believe. Then Boerhmans got hurt - ankle, I believe a fairly bad break. They started playing again last year and Boerhmans was as not physically back to 100%. I remember Mol hitting OT down the line with ease over Boerhmans during that stretch when previously that was not the case. He appears to be back to 100% and look at them to. As for ranking defenders: 1. Ahman 2. Perusic 3-11 in no particular order: Ahmad, Partain, Losiak, Wickler, De Groot, George, Brouwer, Sorum I guess, Ahman is the most dominant defender we’ve seen since Olympic Gold Bruno at least. Teams try to make Hellvig beat them for perspective and Ahman still manages to have at least 30% of their offensive attempts in sideout, plus his defensive pressure applied is the best in the world. Perusic out of the top 2 after his 2023 season is just misinformed. After those 2 there’s arguments to be made within that next group. Vaulting De Groot above either of those first 2 is discounting real results and operating in fantasy land. I'm with you generally. After I thought about it my statement would have better been that de Groot is "one of the three best defenders in the world." Other two are Ahman and Perusic.
I have Wickler just behind those three. Given Sorum's issues, I have him in a group of three at 5-7 that includes Sorum, Partain, Ahmed. I am speaking of now, not a year ago, or prior to that.
Immers isn't even top 10, which is what started this whole discussion anyway.
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Post by bvbllr on Mar 12, 2024 16:19:45 GMT -5
I’ve been super high on De Groot since 2021. If memory serves it was one of the Cancun events when I first said “Wowzers” (trying to channel my future 60-70 year old self just for you lol). I thought Meeuwsen might dump Brouwer for De Groot at the time. Yes, we both were pretty excited about him in 2021 -> volleytalk.proboards.com/thread/85325/new-international-teamsinteresting thread by the way to go back to and see which changes actually happened and which ones happen way too late (or not at all)
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Post by stephenasinjin on Mar 12, 2024 22:25:39 GMT -5
I’m not ready to say #2, and if you really think about it, taking a hard line at #2 is disrespectful; but I’ve been super high on De Groot since 2021. If memory serves it was one of the Cancun events when I first said “Wowzers” (trying to channel my future 60-70 year old self just for you lol). I thought Meeuwsen might dump Brouwer for De Groot at the time. Then De Groot got hurt for like an entire year - back issue I believe. Then Boerhmans got hurt - ankle, I believe a fairly bad break. They started playing again last year and Boerhmans was as not physically back to 100%. I remember Mol hitting OT down the line with ease over Boerhmans during that stretch when previously that was not the case. He appears to be back to 100% and look at them to. As for ranking defenders: 1. Ahman 2. Perusic 3-11 in no particular order: Ahmad, Partain, Losiak, Wickler, De Groot, George, Brouwer, Sorum I guess, Ahman is the most dominant defender we’ve seen since Olympic Gold Bruno at least. Teams try to make Hellvig beat them for perspective and Ahman still manages to have at least 30% of their offensive attempts in sideout, plus his defensive pressure applied is the best in the world. Perusic out of the top 2 after his 2023 season is just misinformed. After those 2 there’s arguments to be made within that next group. Vaulting De Groot above either of those first 2 is discounting real results and operating in fantasy land. I'm with you generally. After I thought about it my statement would have better been that de Groot is "one of the three best defenders in the world." Other two are Ahman and Perusic.
I have Wickler just behind those three. Given Sorum's issues, I have him in a group of three at 5-7 that includes Sorum, Partain, Ahmed. I am speaking of now, not a year ago, or prior to that.
Immers isn't even top 10, which is what started this whole discussion anyway.
Feels like Immers is having his 2014 or 15 or whatever it was Tri Bourne breakout rn. He’s developed into a top 20ish? Defender and recently improved/changed by a bit and teams haven’t figured out how to play him yet. In time he’ll return back to earth. Maybe. Or he’ll keep getting better. He is 23 and super physical afterall
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Post by gk on Mar 12, 2024 22:30:31 GMT -5
As for ranking defenders: 1. Ahman 2. Perusic 3-11 in no particular order: Ahmad, Partain, Losiak, Wickler, De Groot, George, Brouwer, Sorum I guess, Krasilnikov can't make top 11? Out of sight, out of mind I guess.
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Post by stephenasinjin on Mar 12, 2024 22:38:37 GMT -5
As for ranking defenders: 1. Ahman 2. Perusic 3-11 in no particular order: Ahmad, Partain, Losiak, Wickler, De Groot, George, Brouwer, Sorum I guess, Krasilnikov can't make top 11? Out of sight, out of mind I guess. I might be the biggest Krasilnikov fan on this forum haha but it’s more that we don’t have data. If we’re gonna place the highest value on the past year or so of performance, idk how you evaluate him, or Leshukov for that matter. I’d rather put them as a “DQ” than slowly allow them to slip down the leaderboard. For perspective look at how far Sorum has fallen, not to mention Slava is 32 now. I remember hearing rumors that Leshukov was financing his partnership with Stoya, but the fact that the top Russian blocker left him for another defender after a silver medal isn’t great.
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Post by gk on Mar 12, 2024 22:45:01 GMT -5
Yeah, totally fair. I just have a hard time not believing it with how good he was before. Would have a big * next to his name even if you did include him.
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Post by dunninla3 on Mar 13, 2024 0:46:30 GMT -5
As for ranking defenders: 1. Ahman 2. Perusic 3-11 in no particular order: Ahmad, Partain, Losiak, Wickler, De Groot, George, Brouwer, Sorum I guess, Krasilnikov can't make top 11? Out of sight, out of mind I guess. I also didn't include him b/c I don't know what form or health he's in currently, or Leshukov for that matter. I even started a thread lamenting not seeing those four Russians play for a long time now. I had Krasilnikov and Sorum as the best at a time.
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Post by guest2 on Mar 13, 2024 5:05:39 GMT -5
Yeah, totally fair. I just have a hard time not believing it with how good he was before. Would have a big * next to his name even if you did include him. I doubt it too, but go back a few years. Most people thought Sorum was the best defender, Qatar was a top 3-4 team, Evandro was one of the best blockers, and no US team could even sniff a podium
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Post by dunninla3 on Mar 13, 2024 10:22:10 GMT -5
Yeah, totally fair. I just have a hard time not believing it with how good he was before. Would have a big * next to his name even if you did include him. I doubt it too, but go back a few years. Most people thought Sorum was the best defender, Qatar was a top 3-4 team, Evandro was one of the best blockers, and no US team could even sniff a podium Also remember how quickly 30 yr old Bruno went from Rio Gold form to perhaps Tin form. A rapid and unexplainable decline.
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Post by ajm on Mar 13, 2024 11:04:26 GMT -5
I doubt it too, but go back a few years. Most people thought Sorum was the best defender, Qatar was a top 3-4 team, Evandro was one of the best blockers, and no US team could even sniff a podium Also remember how quickly 30 yr old Bruno went from Rio Gold form to perhaps Tin form. A rapid and unexplainable decline. Explainable by a severe case of Covid?
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Post by guest2 on Mar 13, 2024 15:20:12 GMT -5
Also remember how quickly 30 yr old Bruno went from Rio Gold form to perhaps Tin form. A rapid and unexplainable decline. Explainable by a severe case of Covid? He and Evandro had a win in 2019 and he had 1 in 2017, but long before Covid, he was a shadow of the player who was the best defender and a top 2 sideout player in the world in 2015-2016
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Post by stephenasinjin on Mar 13, 2024 17:01:30 GMT -5
Explainable by a severe case of Covid? He and Evandro had a win in 2019 and he had 1 in 2017, but long before Covid, he was a shadow of the player who was the best defender and a top 2 sideout player in the world in 2015-2016 My guess is that he Ty Loomis-ed himself post AVP San Fran with Maddison Mckibbin lmao
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Post by VT Karen on Mar 13, 2024 20:12:50 GMT -5
Explainable by a severe case of Covid? He and Evandro had a win in 2019 and he had 1 in 2017, but long before Covid, he was a shadow of the player who was the best defender and a top 2 sideout player in the world in 2015-2016 I would think that he emptied his tank for that gold medal and probably couldn't find that level again. Even so, 2015-2016 was fantastic and Alison was a great compliment.
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