bluepenquin
Hall of Fame
4-Time VolleyTalk Poster of the Year (2019, 2018, 2017, 2016), All-VolleyTalk 1st Team (2021, 2020, 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016)
Posts: 12,423 
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Post by bluepenquin on Apr 2, 2024 11:31:30 GMT -5
The NBA will transfer fouls that makes it much more difficult for star players (or any player) to foul out as the result of ticky-tact fouls. I have no idea what "transferring fouls" means. Now - it has been years since I have watched much NBA. But when there is foul in the lane in which multiple players were in the area - they will automatically charge the foul to the player that isn't a 'star'. They will often times change the call later - when/if they find out that this was the 3rd foul on a star and there was someone else that they can charge the foul to. Lebron James has fouled out of 6 of his 1,061 games. Michael Jordan fouled out of 11 games in his entire career. 4 of them his rookie season and never once the 1990's came around. Jordan was a great defensive player that didn't exactly sit out of contact in order to stay in games. |
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Post by mervinswerved on Apr 2, 2024 11:42:38 GMT -5
I have no idea what "transferring fouls" means. Now - it has been years since I have watched much NBA. So you don't watch the NBA. Must have missed that one in the rulebook. Do you have some evidence for this claim? Jordan's career fouls per game would put him in the top 25% of fouls in the 23-24 season. It's not like they weren't calling them on him. Lebron has always been a low foul player because 1. He's a fabulous defender and 2. Like most stars, he rarely spends much time guarding the other teams best player. Even when he was young and hadn't become the best player in the world yet he didn't foul a ton. |
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Post by n00b on Apr 2, 2024 11:47:18 GMT -5
I would be open to experiment with the rule being if an individual player commits their 6th+ foul, the penalty is two shots AND the ball.
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bluepenquin
Hall of Fame
4-Time VolleyTalk Poster of the Year (2019, 2018, 2017, 2016), All-VolleyTalk 1st Team (2021, 2020, 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016)
Posts: 12,423
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Post by bluepenquin on Apr 2, 2024 11:48:15 GMT -5
Now - it has been years since I have watched much NBA. So you don't watch the NBA. Must have missed that one in the rulebook. Do you have some evidence for this claim? Jordan's career fouls per game would put him in the top 25% of fouls in the 23-24 season. It's not like they weren't calling them on him. Lebron has always been a low foul player because 1. He's a fabulous defender and 2. Like most stars, he rarely spends much time guarding the other teams best player. Even when he was young and hadn't become the best player in the world yet he didn't foul a ton. It's not that they don't call fouls (on Jordan) - they just don't foul him out - or make it much more difficult. His chances of fouling out in college were about 50x greater than the NBA. |
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bluepenquin
Hall of Fame
4-Time VolleyTalk Poster of the Year (2019, 2018, 2017, 2016), All-VolleyTalk 1st Team (2021, 2020, 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016)
Posts: 12,423
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Post by bluepenquin on Apr 2, 2024 11:52:22 GMT -5
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Post by mervinswerved on Apr 2, 2024 11:53:40 GMT -5
So you don't watch the NBA. Must have missed that one in the rulebook. Do you have some evidence for this claim? Jordan's career fouls per game would put him in the top 25% of fouls in the 23-24 season. It's not like they weren't calling them on him. Lebron has always been a low foul player because 1. He's a fabulous defender and 2. Like most stars, he rarely spends much time guarding the other teams best player. Even when he was young and hadn't become the best player in the world yet he didn't foul a ton. It's not that they don't call fouls (on Jordan) - they just don't foul him out - or make it much more difficult. His chances of fouling out in college were about 50x greater than the NBA. Like, do you have any evidence to support this? |
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bluepenquin
Hall of Fame
4-Time VolleyTalk Poster of the Year (2019, 2018, 2017, 2016), All-VolleyTalk 1st Team (2021, 2020, 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016)
Posts: 12,423
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Post by bluepenquin on Apr 2, 2024 11:59:39 GMT -5
It's not that they don't call fouls (on Jordan) - they just don't foul him out - or make it much more difficult. His chances of fouling out in college were about 50x greater than the NBA. Like, do you have any evidence to support this? Seen it happen (as far as changing the call) - but it has been a long time since I watched much NBA (I can only assume they continue to do this). I haven't done any research - other than look at how rare it was for James or Jordan to foul out (or Jabbar). It sure seems like star players fouling out in college is way more common than the NBA. And star players having to sit on the bench (to protect from fouling out) happens way more in college than the NBA. Having to sit down because of foul trouble has a major impact on the game - IMO a negative one. |
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Post by nellynel on Apr 2, 2024 12:13:01 GMT -5
I don’t have an issue with the NCAA rules just the consistency which there called which is also an issue in other sports like holding on offense in football. You can virtually on any play find an example of a player holding a defensive player, so the consistency in the calls is always tough and can swing.
Same for basketball which also is a contact sport, you can find a foul on almost any possession (hand checking, reaching, pushing off, grabbing, hacking, moving picks and screens, etc.) It’s the consistency that I dislike but agree it’s not easy in real time for refs to sort that out like me watching TV with a rewind option. There is a reason Clark and Brinks raise their hands and protest at almost every foul, it’s because their aggression is usually rewarded so when it’s not they can’t believe it.
Outside of doubles or lifts or the occasional out of rotation (JE🤨) you don’t have that issue in volleyball, at least where it can’t be corrected through a challenge.
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Post by huskerang74 on Apr 2, 2024 12:37:34 GMT -5
Some specific examples would have been helpful. But I have heard comments from on-air personalities and have seen social media backlash. But you'd also need to point to male players who are as in-your-face with the taunting and not getting technicals for it, and that would be very difficult to find, particularly for guys at the superstar level. If anything, the double standard appears to be for leniency for women's players. I remember when Griner punched an opponent (and broke her nose) she only got 2 games suspension - that would have been unthinkable (the NMSU men's player got suspended for an entire season when he did similar this season). I don't think there were any suspensions from the SCAR-LSU SEC tournament kerfuffle (and Flaujae didn't even get T'd up for her shove - even though it was reviewed for like 20 minutes). Kamilla Cardoso was suspended for the first game of the NCAA Tournament after the SCAR-LSU kerfuffle. |
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Post by tempesthorn on Apr 2, 2024 12:46:30 GMT -5
Lots of people on Twitter right now just trying to take down whoever they are angry about by posting select video. With women, it's easier to do because there's still a significant segment of the population who think women shouldn't be aggressive - which of course is completely against the alpha-mentality of basketball in general. So yeah, there's a lot of noise out there right now but I think in the long run, sports history will see it as exactly that - noise. Except the Reese/Clark thing which hits a lot of cultural hot-buttons. Meanwhile, in volleyball Asjia is catching flack for staring a bit too long before turning and celebrating with her peeps. I think the standard is well-set in that regard, you'll continue to see the little stare-downs and that's it and everyone involved will shrug it off at the end. The real double standard to me is between women's volleyball and women's basketball. In WVB, you have Asjia receiving a verbal warning then a yellow card for a harmless stare down. That type of competitiveness enhances the sport IMO. Meanwhile in WBB this year alone we have several players dropping F Bombs - Brink supposedly at the ref as she fouls out, Reese numerous times, Caitlin at the crowd to STFU. I for one do not see the rampant rise of these women cursing like sailors as good for the sport the way certain media pundits proclaim. I agree with the poster who says as soon as anyone does call them on it, it's an immediate gender or race card being played to validate the behavior. An @$$%*!* with bad sportsmanship is an @$$%*!* with bad sportsmanship regardless of being black, white, male or female or whatever Kim Mulkey is identifying as. Young elementary school age children are idolizing and having these players as role models. I get the refs may not see or hear the infractions sometimes, but the coaches need to hold their players accountable for this poor sportsmanship and need to be sending the message that this kind of thing is not to be tolerated or normalized. Don't even get me started on that fiasco at the SEC Championship game. The fact only one person had to sit out the first game of the NCAA playoffs was a travesty, it's time to start going to the film afterwards and doling out some punishments for all the extra curricular stuff going on. |
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Post by mervinswerved on Apr 2, 2024 13:27:10 GMT -5
Like, do you have any evidence to support this? Seen it happen (as far as changing the call) - but it has been a long time since I watched much NBA (I can only assume they continue to do this). You can only assume they still do something you don't have any evidence they ever did? Could it be because college players are worse at defense, the college officials are worse at officiating, and the rules in college and the NBA are different? |
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Post by joetrinsey on Apr 2, 2024 15:40:58 GMT -5
Lots of people on Twitter right now just trying to take down whoever they are angry about by posting select video. With women, it's easier to do because there's still a significant segment of the population who think women shouldn't be aggressive - which of course is completely against the alpha-mentality of basketball in general. So yeah, there's a lot of noise out there right now but I think in the long run, sports history will see it as exactly that - noise. Except the Reese/Clark thing which hits a lot of cultural hot-buttons. Meanwhile, in volleyball Asjia is catching flack for staring a bit too long before turning and celebrating with her peeps. I think the standard is well-set in that regard, you'll continue to see the little stare-downs and that's it and everyone involved will shrug it off at the end. The real double standard to me is between women's volleyball and women's basketball. In WVB, you have Asjia receiving a verbal warning then a yellow card for a harmless stare down. That type of competitiveness enhances the sport IMO.
I disagree. I think volleyball, and international volleyball in particular, is reffed really well in this sense. They allow the competitive juices to flow and the players can get away with a little extra at the big moments. A verbal warning and yellow card mean nothing in the grand scheme of things.
IMO, the purpose of a yellow card is not (to me) to punish a player for bad behavior. It's to prevent behavior that can escalate to a point where players will have to be removed from the game. There's been plenty of meaningful incidents in both basketball and soccer where escalation was allowed and the ejections that followed altered the competitive balance of important competitions. Of course, volleyball is always going to have less conflict because there's a net in the way. But still, I like the way volleyball is reffed in this sense. You can celebrate or talk all the %*$# you want to your teammates but the refs will generally intervene pretty quickly when it gets directed across the net.
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Post by tablealgebra on Apr 2, 2024 19:29:51 GMT -5
Lots of people on Twitter right now just trying to take down whoever they are angry about by posting select video. With women, it's easier to do because there's still a significant segment of the population who think women shouldn't be aggressive - which of course is completely against the alpha-mentality of basketball in general. So yeah, there's a lot of noise out there right now but I think in the long run, sports history will see it as exactly that - noise. Except the Reese/Clark thing which hits a lot of cultural hot-buttons. Meanwhile, in volleyball Asjia is catching flack for staring a bit too long before turning and celebrating with her peeps. I think the standard is well-set in that regard, you'll continue to see the little stare-downs and that's it and everyone involved will shrug it off at the end. The real double standard to me is between women's volleyball and women's basketball. In WVB, you have Asjia receiving a verbal warning then a yellow card for a harmless stare down. That type of competitiveness enhances the sport IMO. Meanwhile in WBB this year alone we have several players dropping F Bombs - Brink supposedly at the ref as she fouls out, Reese numerous times, Caitlin at the crowd to STFU. I for one do not see the rampant rise of these women cursing like sailors as good for the sport the way certain media pundits proclaim. I agree with the poster who says as soon as anyone does call them on it, it's an immediate gender or race card being played to validate the behavior. An @$$%*!* with bad sportsmanship is an @$$%*!* with bad sportsmanship regardless of being black, white, male or female or whatever Kim Mulkey is identifying as. Young elementary school age children are idolizing and having these players as role models. I get the refs may not see or hear the infractions sometimes, but the coaches need to hold their players accountable for this poor sportsmanship and need to be sending the message that this kind of thing is not to be tolerated or normalized. Don't even get me started on that fiasco at the SEC Championship game. The fact only one person had to sit out the first game of the NCAA playoffs was a travesty, it's time to start going to the film afterwards and doling out some punishments for all the extra curricular stuff going on. The swearing doesn't bother me. Once kids are old enough to know what is going on, they're also old enough that they've heard a lot of swearing, and frankly, I think that the swearing doesn't prevent them from being good people in the slightest. Aggressive behavior, though, especially towards the refs, is a big problem. I don't think we can walk back how you should talk to refs 50 years, but there needs to be a more clear line. And frankly, coach behavior towards the refs is generally much worse. |
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Post by Brutus Buckeye on Apr 2, 2024 21:15:00 GMT -5
VB gets away with over the top bench antics that you don't see in W hoops. Like when the whole bench does the worm, or whatever.
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Post by vup on Apr 2, 2024 22:15:52 GMT -5
I have no idea what "transferring fouls" means. The rest of this boils down to "college players foul too much so we should allow them more fouls." I propose instead that college players learn to play better defense and stop fouling so much. I also have no idea what the poster meant by "transferring of fouls". If the original poster that brought up fouling thinks allowing more fouls will reduce bad blood on the floor, they are sadly mistaken. The impact will almost certainly be the opposite. However I've never liked the idea of "fouling out" starting when I played in school. However there does need to be the limit on fouls (without penalty). Instead of fouling out which always seemed an excessive penalty, subsequent fouls called on the "fouled out" player would result in bonus free throws or treatment like technical fouls where the fouled team shoots the free throws and then retains possession of the ball. I’m not all that loyal to one solution or another—as long as there’s a solution. I’m glad I could help start the conversation to create useful discussion, such as your post. |
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