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Post by mikegarrison on Apr 8, 2024 18:48:27 GMT -5
Remember when Kylee McLaughlin sued Oklahoma for kicking her off the team for her outspoken conservative beliefs during the peak of the BLM movement? Seems like Oklahoma's lawyers argued (successfully?) that coaches are allowed to discipline players for political opinions because political disagreements can disrupt team unity. Oklahoma is a "right-to-work" "at-will employment" state, meaning the (conservative Republican) legislature specifically wants employers to be able fire employees just because they want to fire them. As such, it is ridiculous for a conservative fellow like yourself to complain about somebody being kicked off an Oklahoma team because the management of said team decided, for whatever reason, that they didn't want her on the team anymore.
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Post by oldnewbie on Apr 8, 2024 19:00:10 GMT -5
Remember when Kylee McLaughlin sued Oklahoma for kicking her off the team for her outspoken conservative beliefs during the peak of the BLM movement? Seems like Oklahoma's lawyers argued (successfully?) that coaches are allowed to discipline players for political opinions because political disagreements can disrupt team unity. Oklahoma is a "right-to-work" "at-will employment" state, meaning the (conservative Republican) legislature specifically wants employers to be able fire employees just because they want to fire them. As such, it is ridiculous for a conservative fellow like yourself to complain about somebody being kicked off an Oklahoma team because the management of said team decided, for whatever reason, that they didn't want her on the team anymore. Sure, but also remember how hard the NCAA (and member schools) have fought to prevent athletes from being "employees", so that they don't have to pay them and give them proper benefits.
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Post by mervinswerved on Apr 8, 2024 19:07:18 GMT -5
According to her, she wasn't kicked off the team. There was an option for her to stay, with conditions. But I would be fine with kicking a kid off because she's an assh*le who alienated her teammates and coaches. If the coach decided that kneeling for the anthem is being "an assh*le who alienated her teammates and coaches"? Or just your definition of that? Players get kicked off teams all the time for all kinds of reasons. Never been a fan of it myself, but that's a good reason for the athletes to have better (labor) protections. Maybe they could!
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Post by n00b on Apr 8, 2024 19:17:38 GMT -5
Remember when Kylee McLaughlin sued Oklahoma for kicking her off the team for her outspoken conservative beliefs during the peak of the BLM movement? Seems like Oklahoma's lawyers argued (successfully?) that coaches are allowed to discipline players for political opinions because political disagreements can disrupt team unity. Oklahoma is a "right-to-work" "at-will employment" state, meaning the (conservative Republican) legislature specifically wants employers to be able fire employees just because they want to fire them. As such, it is ridiculous for a conservative fellow like yourself to complain about somebody being kicked off an Oklahoma team because the management of said team decided, for whatever reason, that they didn't want her on the team anymore. This is a gray area and I'm actually not sure where I fall. A state university firing or punishing an individual for political speech is a small subset of an employer firing an employee just because they want to. But I do think if you can kick somebody off the team for vocalizing their conservative beliefs, then you should be allowed to kick somebody of the team for vocalizing their liberal beliefs. Or if you can't for one, then you can't for the other. Also, this is a different discussion than if schools want/should have athletes on the court for the anthem.
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Post by oldnewbie on Apr 8, 2024 19:21:23 GMT -5
Players get kicked off teams all the time for all kinds of reasons. Never been a fan of it myself, but that's a good reason for the athletes to have better (labor) protections. While players can get kicked off pretty much at will (I think), at least the rules for pulling a scholarship are well defined and very strict, and can have nothing to do with what the coach wants. They have to specifically trigger some specific clause (graduate, violate drug policy, become ineligible to compete, quit the team, sign a pro contract, enter transfer portal, etc)
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Post by HOLIDAY on Apr 8, 2024 19:24:22 GMT -5
BTW, I pretty much never would stand for the National Anthem before sporting events, because I have found playing the anthem before sporting events to be a very stupid tradition. The pressure of sitting post 9/11 was too great for me to do this - although even post 9/11 - this is among the more stupid traditions in sports. It is long past time - they need to stop this tradition before every sporting event. These kinds of litmus tests for one's patriotism needs to stop. This is enormously disappointing. This is a simple basic way to honor the people who have died at an early age so we didn’t end up being Nazis. It’s to honor them in a simple way that lasts a mere few minutes. How pompous and sanctimonious of you to act like it means nothing to other people. It should. Maybe you should take some time and walk some cemeteries so you truly understand the sacrifice that took place so YOU could have a life you do now. How incredibly selfish.
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Post by volleyguy on Apr 8, 2024 19:25:15 GMT -5
BTW, I pretty much never would stand for the National Anthem before sporting events, because I have found playing the anthem before sporting events to be a very stupid tradition. The pressure of sitting post 9/11 was too great for me to do this - although even post 9/11 - this is among the more stupid traditions in sports. It is long past time - they need to stop this tradition before every sporting event. These kinds of litmus tests for one's patriotism needs to stop. This is enormously disappointing. This is a simple basic way to honor the people who have died at an early age so we didn’t end up being Nazis. It’s to honor them in a simple way that lasts a mere few minutes. How pompous and sanctimonious of you to act like it means nothing to other people. It should. Maybe you should take some time and walk some cemeteries so you truly understand the sacrifice that took place so YOU could have a life you do now. How incredibly selfish. Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah
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Post by mervinswerved on Apr 8, 2024 19:25:53 GMT -5
Players get kicked off teams all the time for all kinds of reasons. Never been a fan of it myself, but that's a good reason for the athletes to have better (labor) protections. While players can get kicked off pretty much at will (I think), at least the rules for pulling a scholarship are well defined and very strict, and can have nothing to do with what the coach wants. They have to specifically trigger some specific clause (graduate, violate drug policy, become ineligible to compete, quit the team, sign a pro contract, enter transfer portal, etc) The player n00b mentioned didn't have her scholarship taken away.
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Post by mikegarrison on Apr 8, 2024 19:29:22 GMT -5
But I do think if you can kick somebody off the team for vocalizing their conservative beliefs, then you should be allowed to kick somebody of the team for vocalizing their liberal beliefs. Or if you can't for one, then you can't for the other. Of course. (And of course, if one is protected, then the other one is too.) Then again, IIRC she was kicked off due to supposedly racist beliefs. I'm not sure conservatives want to accept that racism is a conservative belief, but if you want to do so, that's your right. But the official explanation mentioned neither racism nor conservatism. Just that she "did not fit the team culture". As such, I think the "at-will employment" mentality should 100% support the right to fire her for that.
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Post by n00b on Apr 8, 2024 19:38:46 GMT -5
But I do think if you can kick somebody off the team for vocalizing their conservative beliefs, then you should be allowed to kick somebody of the team for vocalizing their liberal beliefs. Or if you can't for one, then you can't for the other. Of course. (And of course, if one is protected, then the other one is too.) Then again, IIRC she was kicked off due to supposedly racist beliefs. I'm not sure conservatives want to accept that racism is a conservative belief, but if you want to do so, that's your right. But the official explanation mentioned neither racism nor conservatism. Just that she "did not fit the team culture". As such, I think the "at-will employment" mentality should 100% support the right to fire her for that. Name-calling shouldn't justify suspension of somebody's freedom of speech.
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Post by n00b on Apr 8, 2024 19:40:48 GMT -5
But the official explanation mentioned neither racism nor conservatism. Just that she "did not fit the team culture". As such, I think the "at-will employment" mentality should 100% support the right to fire her for that. plaintiff was told she "did not fit the culture of the program" and could not be trusted based on her media posts and comments reported by her teammates.casetext.com/case/mclaughlin-v-bd-of-regents-of-the-univ-of-oklaLiterally didn't fit the culture due to her speech.
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Post by mikegarrison on Apr 8, 2024 19:46:53 GMT -5
But the official explanation mentioned neither racism nor conservatism. Just that she "did not fit the team culture". As such, I think the "at-will employment" mentality should 100% support the right to fire her for that. plaintiff was told she "did not fit the culture of the program" and could not be trusted based on her media posts and comments reported by her teammates.casetext.com/case/mclaughlin-v-bd-of-regents-of-the-univ-of-oklaLiterally didn't fit the culture due to her speech. So? Like I said, "at-will employment". Do you support at-will employment? I'm a life-long union member, with a nice retirement because of those union benefits. I do NOT support "right-to-work" or unlimited "at-will employment". But it was my understanding that most Republicans and similar conservatives do. Do you?
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Post by longboards on Apr 8, 2024 19:47:15 GMT -5
Of course. (And of course, if one is protected, then the other one is too.) Then again, IIRC she was kicked off due to supposedly racist beliefs. I'm not sure conservatives want to accept that racism is a conservative belief, but if you want to do so, that's your right. But the official explanation mentioned neither racism nor conservatism. Just that she "did not fit the team culture". As such, I think the "at-will employment" mentality should 100% support the right to fire her for that. Name-calling shouldn't justify suspension of somebody's freedom of speech. What about suspension from a team?
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Post by n00b on Apr 8, 2024 19:59:44 GMT -5
So? Like I said, "at-will employment". Do you support at-will employment? I'm a life-long union member, with a nice retirement because of those union benefits. I do NOT support "right-to-work" or unlimited "at-will employment". But it was my understanding that most Republicans and similar conservatives do. Do you? Yes. AND at-will employees still can't be fired by the state for protected speech. Heck, SCOTUS ruled in the last couple of years that a high school can't suspend a kid from the cheer team for speech during off hours. You don't need a union to protect Constitutional rights. All this to say, this particular debate is academic. An employee would happily accept the solution of "we'll continue to pay you, but you're disruptive to the team so stay home". This is essentially what was told to McLaughlin, and there is no real way to disallow that. And the bigger picture here is that unless it's specifically your mission (like The Daily Wire or Emily's List), I think it's bad management to try to get everybody on your team to have the same beliefs on things like religion or politics.
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Post by n00b on Apr 8, 2024 20:01:46 GMT -5
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