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Post by mervinswerved on Jun 19, 2024 17:59:40 GMT -5
It's just weird to me to see the desperation in this forum of people hoping for Congress to pass a special law to prevent something that I think is both just and overdue. "Just and overdue" depends on what question you are answering... 1) "Should students be paid for the time they dedicate to an extra-curricular activity with the potential for post-graduate employment?" I think most people would say no. Do we pay the Pre-med club? Does pre med club earn the university millions of dollars in annual media rights fees and ticket sales? |
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Post by mikegarrison on Jun 19, 2024 18:52:49 GMT -5
"Just and overdue" depends on what question you are answering... 1) "Should students be paid for the time they dedicate to an extra-curricular activity with the potential for post-graduate employment?" I think most people would say no. Do we pay the Pre-med club? Does pre med club earn the university millions of dollars in annual media rights fees and ticket sales? Does pre-med club require students to be on campus months before the term starts, with mandatory training sessions and weight-room sessions? Does pre-med club restrict the members from transferring to other schools if they want to? That is such a ridiculously stupid strawman attempt to deflect from the reality of what is happening. |
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Post by mplsgopher on Jun 19, 2024 18:58:03 GMT -5
You’re exactly confirming the point #3.
So if you earn the school millions of dollars and you’re required to be on campus months before the start of the term (though this discounts the possibility that the athletes are taking summer credits, which I believe is common?), with mandatory training and weightlifting sessions … then you should get to be an employee of the school.
Everyone else no.
So it would be a very small subset of total, NCAA varsity roster athletes.
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Post by n00b on Jun 19, 2024 19:55:11 GMT -5
"Just and overdue" depends on what question you are answering... 1) "Should students be paid for the time they dedicate to an extra-curricular activity with the potential for post-graduate employment?" I think most people would say no. Do we pay the Pre-med club? Does pre med club earn the university millions of dollars in annual media rights fees and ticket sales? I know I'm a broken record, but I still don't understand this argument. If I do landscaping work for a company that loses money this year can they pay me less than minimum wage? "Does the organization turn a profit" isn't a determining factor for employment. Two people doing the same work should be classified the same regardless of the financial success of the organization. I don't understand how a football player at Alabama would be required to be an employee while a high school field hockey player isn't. |
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Post by mervinswerved on Jun 19, 2024 20:08:22 GMT -5
Does pre med club earn the university millions of dollars in annual media rights fees and ticket sales? I know I'm a broken record, but I still don't understand this argument. If I do landscaping work for a company that loses money this year can they pay me less than minimum wage? "Does the organization turn a profit" isn't a determining factor for employment. Two people doing the same work should be classified the same regardless of the financial success of the organization. I don't understand how a football player at Alabama would be required to be an employee while a high school field hockey player isn't. I didn't say anything about profit. The question is, does the person's *labor create value.* For a segment of major college athletes, the answer is clearly "yes." |
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Post by n00b on Jun 19, 2024 20:16:17 GMT -5
I know I'm a broken record, but I still don't understand this argument. If I do landscaping work for a company that loses money this year can they pay me less than minimum wage? "Does the organization turn a profit" isn't a determining factor for employment. Two people doing the same work should be classified the same regardless of the financial success of the organization. I don't understand how a football player at Alabama would be required to be an employee while a high school field hockey player isn't. I didn't say anything about profit. The question is, does the person's *labor create value.* For a segment of major college athletes, the answer is clearly "yes." So when the high school advertises that their lacrosse team won the state championship as a way to increase enrollment and donations, those 16 year olds should be legally required to become employees? |
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Post by mervinswerved on Jun 19, 2024 20:19:30 GMT -5
I didn't say anything about profit. The question is, does the person's *labor create value.* For a segment of major college athletes, the answer is clearly "yes." So when the high school advertises that their lacrosse team won the state championship as a way to increase enrollment and donations, those 16 year olds should be legally required to become employees? I think it's telling your rebuttals all deal with scenarios that aren't the one at question. But sure, why not. Let's cut the high school kids in on the private school lacrosse gravy train. |
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Post by n00b on Jun 19, 2024 21:24:43 GMT -5
So when the high school advertises that their lacrosse team won the state championship as a way to increase enrollment and donations, those 16 year olds should be legally required to become employees? I think it's telling your rebuttals all deal with scenarios that aren't the one at question. But sure, why not. Let's cut the high school kids in on the private school lacrosse gravy train. It is at question. You have to define what makes an athlete an employee. Your standard that a person's "labor creates value" is incredibly broad and vague. What is the limiting factor that differentiates Alabama football and MIT fencing? MIT offers fencing because they believe creates value, right? Why else would they have it? |
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Post by vbnerd on Jun 19, 2024 22:22:25 GMT -5
Does pre med club earn the university millions of dollars in annual media rights fees and ticket sales? Does pre-med club require students to be on campus months before the term starts, with mandatory training sessions and weight-room sessions? Does pre-med club restrict the members from transferring to other schools if they want to? That is such a ridiculously stupid strawman attempt to deflect from the reality of what is happening. So you are focusing on the 3rd question, that's fair. All 3 questions were accurate characterizations for a portion of the stakeholders involved. That is precisely why this is an interesting debate. Where you stand depends on your point of view. |
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Post by vbnerd on Jun 19, 2024 22:57:34 GMT -5
So when the high school advertises that their lacrosse team won the state championship as a way to increase enrollment and donations, those 16 year olds should be legally required to become employees? I think it's telling your rebuttals all deal with scenarios that aren't the one at question. But sure, why not. Let's cut the high school kids in on the private school lacrosse gravy train. Real word - Olympians don't get paid unless they win a medal. Should they all go on strike this month? The last number from Disney/ESPN for the Little League World Series was $11.3 million in 2022 with another $11 million in sponsorships, merchandise and concessions. There is no product without the 11 and 12 year olds and yet they spend $2 million on their top 7 executives and nothing other than travel for the players. Maybe the Little League World Series players should unionize for the 2 weeks they play on television. There is always going to need to be a line drawn. I am fine with that line being drawn before we get to non-profit educational institutions but that ship has sailed, so where should the line be drawn? |
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Post by mikegarrison on Jun 20, 2024 1:47:24 GMT -5
There is always going to need to be a line drawn. I am fine with that line being drawn before we get to non-profit educational institutions but that ship has sailed, so where should the line be drawn? If these school athletics departments were actually non-profit, none of these issues would even be existing. But even so, non-profits do quite often have employees. Certainly universities have employees, despite being "non-profit educational institutions". Why should athletes not be among those employees? If the pre-med students want to get together for pizza and the occasional social/networking meeting, those would not be activities that normally would trigger the suggestion that they are employees. However, if they have scheduled shifts to work at the campus medical center, they would be employees, right? |
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Post by ironhammer on Jun 20, 2024 7:02:20 GMT -5
All this talk about whether NCAA "amateurs" should be rewarded with cash for their labor reminded me of an old 90's movie...Blue Chips. Starring Nicke Nolte and directed by William Friedkin (famous for the French Connection and the Exorcist).
The film isn't about paying college amateurs per se, but it does goes to the high-stakes pressure involved to land top high school basketball talent for college programs. Nolte stars as a stressed coach under pressure to land some potential high school talent to rescue his underperforming team. Along the way he discovers how some programs will do whatever it takes to grab those talent. Even resort to outright corruption to draft some top picks, buying them cars, offer their parents new jobs and so forth. So those players were "rewarded" somehow in return for their athletic performance.
The movie overall however was kinda mediocre, so there was that, haha.
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Post by n00b on Jun 20, 2024 7:22:12 GMT -5
There is always going to need to be a line drawn. I am fine with that line being drawn before we get to non-profit educational institutions but that ship has sailed, so where should the line be drawn? If these school athletics departments were actually non-profit, none of these issues would even be existing. But even so, non-profits do quite often have employees. Certainly universities have employees, despite being "non-profit educational institutions". Why should athletes not be among those employees? If the pre-med students want to get together for pizza and the occasional social/networking meeting, those would not be activities that normally would trigger the suggestion that they are employees. However, if they have scheduled shifts to work at the campus medical center, they would be employees, right? Very few people work shifts at a medical center for fun. If doctors weren’t paid, almost nobody would be a doctor. Athletes are playing a game that millions of people play as a fun activity. Millions on top of that probably PAY to participate in a league. Their participation generates revenue and now they are permitted to share in that revenue. And if an organization WANTS to make them employees go for it. But the argument that “they have a schedule with mandatory workouts” should mean that they’re REQUIRED to be an employee is nonsensical to me. |
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Post by noblesol on Jun 20, 2024 8:14:55 GMT -5
I'd classify them all as independent contractors, and require they be taxed that way. And the 'non-profit' status of the programs paying them should end when they generate profit year after year after year. When private equity investors want in on the action, that's a clue.
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Post by mplsgopher on Jun 20, 2024 8:38:42 GMT -5
I think it's telling your rebuttals all deal with scenarios that aren't the one at question. But sure, why not. Let's cut the high school kids in on the private school lacrosse gravy train. It is at question. You have to define what makes an athlete an employee. Your standard that a person's "labor creates value" is incredibly broad and vague. What is the limiting factor that differentiates Alabama football and MIT fencing? MIT offers fencing because they believe creates value, right? Why else would they have it? MIT and many other schools also have club teams which they throw a few dollars at, as well as things like performing arts programs that sell tickets to (or at least put on, maybe free admission) performances in theaters. So I agree that I don’t see any way to have a well defined, reasonable criteria that includes DIII varsity athletes of non-revenue sports but excludes all club sports and performing arts (at the least). I think the criteria will have to be expanded, to include more ideas strictly relating to dollars. |
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