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Post by mplsgopher on Jun 20, 2024 8:41:13 GMT -5
If these school athletics departments were actually non-profit, They always were. The big explosion in revenue (outside of donations) has come in the last 20ish years in TV contracts. And those are made at the conference level (granted, with decisions always voted on by member school presidents). Are you saying they should have turned down this revenue? Even still, if they spend it all then technically they’re still non-profit? |
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Post by noblesol on Jun 20, 2024 8:57:53 GMT -5
So much reinventing of the wheel — unnecessary. Pass a bill that clarifies the tax status of the NCAAs designated Super Tier-1 schools and their clearly for-profit programs. A starting point being any school with an athletic budget exceeding $100M, with an FBS program that generates consecutive years of substantial profit. The program generating those profits is no longer treated as a non-profit program, it's a separate for-profit business to be spun off from the non-profit school foundation. It must be taxed that way, its athletes are independent contractors, the business is to have owners/shareholders, be able to raise capital without risk to the sponsoring school, pay its owners dividends, and ownership shares can be sold either privately or on public markets depending on how the business is organized.
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Post by vbnerd on Jun 20, 2024 9:04:01 GMT -5
There is always going to need to be a line drawn. I am fine with that line being drawn before we get to non-profit educational institutions but that ship has sailed, so where should the line be drawn? If these school athletics departments were actually non-profit, none of these issues would even be existing. But even so, non-profits do quite often have employees. Certainly universities have employees, despite being "non-profit educational institutions". Why should athletes not be among those employees? If the pre-med students want to get together for pizza and the occasional social/networking meeting, those would not be activities that normally would trigger the suggestion that they are employees. However, if they have scheduled shifts to work at the campus medical center, they would be employees, right? There are a lot of people in hospitals and clinics who volunteer to be there and don't expect to get paid. The candy striper or the catholic aid woman giving communion doesn't say "whoa, you mean the doctors were getting paid to be there? Where is my cut!" That's one of my issues especially when we talk about back pay (House settlement) - you signed an LOI with the terms. Brandon Jennings didn't want to go to college so he went to Europe for a year before the NBA. Or the Dartmouth basketball players - they knew the deal when they accepted the position on the team. If you wanted to get paid, you should have gone somewhere else, done something else. If you got there and didn't like the deal, leave. But to have remorse over the deal you made for yourself and then think you are so important that age old institutions should change for you - that level of self centeredness / entitlement makes me a ill. |
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Post by mervinswerved on Jun 20, 2024 9:14:32 GMT -5
I think it's telling your rebuttals all deal with scenarios that aren't the one at question. But sure, why not. Let's cut the high school kids in on the private school lacrosse gravy train. Real word - Olympians don't get paid unless they win a medal. Should they all go on strike this month? The last number from Disney/ESPN for the Little League World Series was $11.3 million in 2022 with another $11 million in sponsorships, merchandise and concessions. There is no product without the 11 and 12 year olds and yet they spend $2 million on their top 7 executives and nothing other than travel for the players. Maybe the Little League World Series players should unionize for the 2 weeks they play on television. There is always going to need to be a line drawn. I am fine with that line being drawn before we get to non-profit educational institutions but that ship has sailed, so where should the line be drawn? The Little League World Series kids should absolutely get a cut! |
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Post by noblesol on Jun 20, 2024 9:18:24 GMT -5
The 'conferences' that are at issue, which are generating the 'issues' re athlete status, are for-profit leagues in primarily two very profitable sports, FBS Tier-1 football and men's basketball. The congressional 'tax' bill that is to be passed should stipulate that for those clearly for-profit sports that they are operating professional sports leagues, that for those sports they be organized like other professional sports leagues.
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Post by noblesol on Jun 20, 2024 9:34:46 GMT -5
Real word - Olympians don't get paid unless they win a medal. Should they all go on strike this month? The last number from Disney/ESPN for the Little League World Series was $11.3 million in 2022 with another $11 million in sponsorships, merchandise and concessions. There is no product without the 11 and 12 year olds and yet they spend $2 million on their top 7 executives and nothing other than travel for the players. Maybe the Little League World Series players should unionize for the 2 weeks they play on television. There is always going to need to be a line drawn. I am fine with that line being drawn before we get to non-profit educational institutions but that ship has sailed, so where should the line be drawn? The Little League World Series kids should absolutely get a cut! And be classified as professional athletes, able to hire agents and cut NIL deals, and all be taxed accordingly. |
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Post by vbnerd on Jun 20, 2024 9:49:03 GMT -5
If these school athletics departments were actually non-profit, They always were. The big explosion in revenue (outside of donations) has come in the last 20ish years in TV contracts. And those are made at the conference level (granted, with decisions always voted on by member school presidents). Are you saying they should have turned down this revenue? Even still, if they spend it all then technically they’re still non-profit? Take the money when it's free money, but if you have to sacrifice your students to take it, it isn't free. Canceling classes and closing campus to clear the parking lots so you can host a Thursday night game? Not free. Joining a conference that triples your miles and flights for a few more dollars? Your students are paying the price. However, if your dumbest, least ethical competitor is selling itself to the highest bidder and using the money to build it's program, how do you keep up? You have to sell your soul too. And that's how we got to where we are. We need to be on TV because more applications/higher yield makes our school look better to US News. Money and attention lead to academic quality, right? So the Pac 12 didn't want to play on Friday nights - the TV package took a hit, the conference dissolved, and now Fox Friday night football has Pac 12 teams playing on Friday nights in 8 of 11 weeks and ESPN has 6 more Thursday/Friday night games with Pac 12 teams in just the first 7 weeks. It is less than they were asked to provide, but UNLV has gladly picked up the slack taking 4 Friday night games. So the Pac 12 tried to stand up to the money and got run over. |
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Post by mikegarrison on Jun 20, 2024 9:49:33 GMT -5
MIT is D3, and D3 is certainly not driving these issues. However, I have no problem if D3 athletes in official school-sponsored sports end up being classed as employees. They don't get scholarships, but "unpaid interns" are still employees.
There is a reason why there is already a distinction made by many schools between club sports and sponsored sports.
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Post by vbnerd on Jun 20, 2024 9:50:53 GMT -5
Real word - Olympians don't get paid unless they win a medal. Should they all go on strike this month? The last number from Disney/ESPN for the Little League World Series was $11.3 million in 2022 with another $11 million in sponsorships, merchandise and concessions. There is no product without the 11 and 12 year olds and yet they spend $2 million on their top 7 executives and nothing other than travel for the players. Maybe the Little League World Series players should unionize for the 2 weeks they play on television. There is always going to need to be a line drawn. I am fine with that line being drawn before we get to non-profit educational institutions but that ship has sailed, so where should the line be drawn? The Little League World Series kids should absolutely get a cut! Oh jeez. Ok, baby races during the half-time show. You paying them too? Who DOESN'T get paid in your world? |
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Post by mervinswerved on Jun 20, 2024 9:59:42 GMT -5
The Little League World Series kids should absolutely get a cut! Oh jeez. Ok, baby races during the half-time show. You paying them too? Who DOESN'T get paid in your world? That depends, I guess. Are the baby races selling thousands of tickets and making millions every year in media rights? |
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Post by noblesol on Jun 20, 2024 10:15:30 GMT -5
The issue at the cusp, requiring settlement of definitions — amateur or professional and non-profit or for-profit? Providing amateur intern service or skilled professional service to a non-profit or for-profit?
Clearly, FBS Tier-1 schools, ~ 60 of them with athletic budgets north of $100 million, most all in the P5/4 conferences, have become for-profits that recruit only highly skilled labor to operate/play in their for-profit FBS Tier-1 football and men's basketball businesses. Existing law knows how to regulate and tax professional sports, with players able to unionize if they desire to, and teams able to organize into leagues which then bargain for the owners with the unions. Of course, unions will have the right to strike. So, players will need some assurance written in contracts, and into law, that players under contract to for-profit teams and leagues spun off from non-profit schools and conferences, that the players have rights of attendance at sponsoring schools while on strike.
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Post by mplsgopher on Jun 20, 2024 10:18:26 GMT -5
MIT is D3, and D3 is certainly not driving these issues. However, I have no problem if D3 athletes in official school-sponsored sports end up being classed as employees. They don't get scholarships, but "unpaid interns" are still employees. There is a reason why there is already a distinction made by many schools between club sports and sponsored sports. ”Official” and “sponsored”? Why aren’t club sports those things? Performing arts? Seems a little squishy. I don’t think an unpaid intern can be an employee because employees have to make a minimum wage. That’s one of the key, very sticky points. It’s not just about organizing and bargaining power, for the sake of that, noble as that is. |
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Post by mplsgopher on Jun 20, 2024 10:20:02 GMT -5
Obviously children (LLWS) cant be employees, there are laws against that.
But I’d be fine if each player got a cut of money from selling NIL rights, put into a trust fund, some legally through their parents/guardians as need be.
Don’t need to be an employee for that.
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Post by mplsgopher on Jun 20, 2024 10:21:14 GMT -5
Oh jeez. Ok, baby races during the half-time show. You paying them too? Who DOESN'T get paid in your world? That depends, I guess. Are the baby races selling thousands of tickets and making millions every year in media rights? Nor do DIII varsity athletics. You’re against the Dartmouth basketball players, I can only assume then? |
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Post by hopefuldawg on Jun 20, 2024 10:27:47 GMT -5
There is always going to need to be a line drawn. I am fine with that line being drawn before we get to non-profit educational institutions but that ship has sailed, so where should the line be drawn? If these school athletics departments were actually non-profit, none of these issues would even be existing. But even so, non-profits do quite often have employees. Certainly universities have employees, despite being "non-profit educational institutions". Why should athletes not be among those employees? If the pre-med students want to get together for pizza and the occasional social/networking meeting, those would not be activities that normally would trigger the suggestion that they are employees. However, if they have scheduled shifts to work at the campus medical center, they would be employees, right? I mean, medical students are required to work shifts at medical centers and are not employees (no pay, no labor law protections, etc.) because the shifts are part of a "class." |
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