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Post by Murina on Oct 14, 2006 12:02:41 GMT -5
StuffU gets what I'm saying (and I think (R)uffda does also, we just disagree on what could/should be done). StuffU, thanks for saying it better than I.
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Post by Keystonekid on Oct 14, 2006 12:27:03 GMT -5
This isn't rocket science. When our best players at the age of say 22, have played in maybe a dozen internationl matches, and the 22 year olds from Brazil, China, Russia etc, have played in 100, the outcome shouldn't suprise anyone. The USAV is trying to identify players earlier and give them international experience earlier. As a member of the USAV and a coach of players in the pipeline (JNT, YNT) I believe the goal of the USAV should be to win the Olympics on both the mens and womens side. Look at USA basketball on both the mens and womens side, our talent level is by far the best, but the players cannot either understand or adjust to the international style of play.
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Post by StuffU on Oct 14, 2006 12:37:33 GMT -5
This isn't rocket science. When our best players at the age of say 22, have played in maybe a dozen internationl matches, and the 22 year olds from Brazil, China, Russia etc, have played in 100, the outcome shouldn't suprise anyone. The USAV is trying to identify players earlier and give them international experience earlier. As a member of the USAV and a coach of players in the pipeline (JNT, YNT) I believe the goal of the USAV should be to win the Olympics on both the mens and womens side. Look at USA basketball on both the mens and womens side, our talent level is by far the best, but the players cannot either understand or adjust to the international style of play. You cannot compare USA Basketbal to USA Volleyball. It's apples an oranges. The talent level and high level opportunities are quite different. Besides that, the game is just different. The problem the US has at the international level is that they only have six subs AND only one entry in volleyball. Basketball does not limit itself as much. Aside from that, other countries aspire to have teams and players that the US has .. that is not the case in volleyball. And you are right, it is not rocket science. Fact is, the Junior Olympic program is no longer about developing players for the national team level (despite its real mission). The Junior Olympic program is about making money and getting kids a scholie to their preferred college choice. If the JO program really took a hard look at its true intended purpose, it would see the obvious fix is what Murina suggested ... and it doesn't take a lot of effort for that to happen. Unfortunately, money (and the parents that pay that money to JO programs) are the motivating factor
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Post by Wolfgang on Oct 14, 2006 12:42:39 GMT -5
This isn't rocket science. ... Common saying. At my law firm, we used to say, "This isn't rocket science but if it were, we are rocket scientists."
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Post by Keystonekid on Oct 14, 2006 12:52:04 GMT -5
The comparison is lack of international experience.
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Post by StuffU on Oct 14, 2006 13:02:29 GMT -5
The comparison is lack of international experience. It's not just lack of international experience. The difference is that USA Basketball has the developed talent to compete internationally ~ and USA Volleyball does not. USA Basketball players have the individual skill level to compete internationally with any team. USA Volleyball is one rung down from that ~ our talent does not have the skill level to compete internationally (based on international rules). USA Basketball needs its players to play with each other more often as a team. USA Volleyball needs to look a little further back and develop its players individual skill sets to the international level.
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Post by beachman on Oct 14, 2006 13:25:53 GMT -5
jO's has turned into nothing but a "big box supermarket" for college coaches to go to look for talent.....and for parents to take their kids in the hopes of getting a "free college education." Unfortunately this is a big part of what is wrong right now with the entire sport of collegiate volleyball
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Post by gstring on Oct 14, 2006 15:59:03 GMT -5
USA volleyball should entice its potential athletes with better pay...Living in the great U S of A money is everything...look at willoughby she makes more money playing in the puerto rico league...why play for the national team? Playing on just nolstagia of representing your country just dont cut it these days...need to pay the bucks to feel nostagic
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Post by bunnywailer on Oct 14, 2006 21:43:04 GMT -5
the outside hitters in this college season does not wow me. I think the national team needs a season hitter. By 2008 ogonna looks like a lock and maybe willoughby will be enticed to wear the red blue and white. I see perhaps barboza and larson maybe on the team but will be riding the bench red blue and white? You truly are killing me.....what country are you from?
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Post by bunnywailer on Oct 14, 2006 22:00:43 GMT -5
USA volleyball should entice its potential athletes with better pay...Living in the great U S of A money is everything...look at willoughby she makes more money playing in the puerto rico league...why play for the national team? Playing on just nolstagia of representing your country just dont cut it these days...need to pay the bucks to feel nostagic USAV is a non-profit organization, whose purpose extends to much more than the National Teams. Where do you propose to get all of this money from?
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Post by Murina on Oct 14, 2006 22:26:16 GMT -5
This isn't rocket science. At least this part we agree on You are leaving out several more important factors re: Brazil, China, Russia etc.: 1) those kids start playing on club teams with players of similar ability (often older players) much sooner than kids in the USA do. That experience is probably more valuable than the international caps. The domestic experience is far more important to player development than international. 2) YNT and JNT teams in other countries often spend several months training together - again kids playing with and against others of similar ability. USA YNT and JNT programs are usually a few weeks long. 3) for the few players who have that many caps at 22 (100 is an awful lot - possible for some though), a main reason is that they are outplaying their older teammates and competitors on their domestic club teams. In the case of some Russians in particular the level of their YNT/JNT is lower than their normal club teams. I'm sure the USAV wants very much to win Olympic gold medals. At first the international experience thing seems like a correct and noble goal... I wonder if it is the best solution available though? As it is currently being done, it has several potentially fatal flaws: 1) (repeated ad nauseum) wing players play 90% of their practice and matches under rules that fail to demand their growth in all phases of the game. 2) the top x percent of players in the USA don't play with and against players of similar ability for any length of time until college - and sometimes not even then. It's very rare for a club or high school team to have more than one really top level player - and they also rarely play against another. 3) all those international caps are worthless if the receivers don't regularly face servers at that level domestically. 4) the pool of top players who are going to get international experience is very small - especially compared to the pool of players who could eventually become national team players. The currently existing layers of A2 and development camps need to somehow be turned into development teams who train together for more than a week or two and who compete against each other regularly. I wonder if there is a way USAV could create longer term, higher level domestic play that could substitute for some international caps? "International experience" is really just code for "high level experience." In a country with as many players as the USA, it seems like the level could possibly be created domestically.
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Post by romeo on Oct 14, 2006 22:32:18 GMT -5
Hurray! Hurrah! Well said. Amen.
[quote author=murina board=general thread=1160612059 post= Incidently, it isn't just the short players that will go away from high level volleyball if the sub rules were changed. The giant clods who don't do much besides be tall will also be relegated to the "participation" ranks. The good athletes, regardless of size, will rise to the top levels and the level of play will get higher.
quote]
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Post by cbrown1709 on Oct 15, 2006 2:47:33 GMT -5
Well, the point you are making about younger players and older players playing together is something that seems to be changing with the USAV. In the last tournament in Mexico, several high school players were added to the roster along with current national team players. So maybe implimenting the combination like other successful programs.
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Post by sIsam on Oct 15, 2006 3:47:06 GMT -5
1) those kids start playing on club teams with players of similar ability (often older players) much sooner than kids in the USA do. That experience is probably more valuable than the international caps. The domestic experience is far more important to player development than international. In addition to the rule sets being used, I think this is the other major reason that the gap widens between US juniors and their international peers. Internationals get a chance to compete and train with players as good or better regardsless of age. To give an example here, the best blocker of Turkish Final Four last season was Eda Erdem, a 19-year old. 16 year-old Naz Aydemir (who would be playing youth until 2007, not even juniors, if grouped with age) set her team to the National Championship in the senior division. 3) for the few players who have that many caps at 22 (100 is an awful lot - possible for some though), a main reason is that they are outplaying their older teammates and competitors on their domestic club teams. In the case of some Russians in particular the level of their YNT/JNT is lower than their normal club teams. Try over 70 caps at the age of 16 Seriously though, there are not many 22 year-olds out there with over 100 caps but there are quite a few of them playing very stiff competition with their club teams locally. For elite young players, the level of club competition being higher is true pretty much everywhere not just Russia since they would already be bumped to a higher level team locally. Take Ortolani of Italy, for example, no matter how good the Italian JNT is or was at her time, it can't be as good as Bergamo, her club team. She is just one example, there're quite a few like that all over...
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Post by texas22 on Oct 15, 2006 3:57:08 GMT -5
If Hooker out of UT can continue to progress from how she was in spring training until now i think she shows a lot of upside. The angles and places she can put the ball at on the court are awesome. she just needs a setter who can set her properly. Moriarity sets her too low and makes her swing into the block. She plays so high above the net. I know we have been talking about subs and all but its not like she has never played defense. Also, if you were going to pick an athlete to train defensivly I would pick her. She is so athletic and picks up on everything so quickly.
Even though I think all this is true. She will want to do Track & Field before anything. But I think she would be a good fit if she wanted to do it.
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