Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 7:14:45 GMT -5
The problem is that Florida, like Texas, recruit great athletes with decent talent, and consistently fail to develop that talent (by top D1 standards.) The coaches--Wise, Elliott, Boos--are great people but they're missing a little something in their training and development. Some might argue that Texas' recent success doesn't merit such a statement, but realistically they could have won 2 or 3 more championships in the past few years. I think it's really about how people want to define "talent". Athletic ability and talent, to me are two different things, although athleticism is certainly going to impact how talented a kid is. If a kid touches 10'4, is explosive etc..... that player seems to be more "talented" than someone who is just a better player, or more experienced. Talent "to me" is all the things that contribute to how well a player can play.I would consider a players experience as one more thing that would define how talented she was. As I said, it really comes down to how people want to define talent, or better talent. I don't see this as someone is right or wrong, but probably just defining differently. John Stockton IMO was more talented than Dominique Wilkins, and that's about 4 levels difference in athletic ability. Toughness, will, IQ, competitiveness, will determine how good (talented) a player is in the same way as athleticism will. For a third time, IMO. I respect your opinion, but it doesn't make much sense to me to say that a tough kid who wants to win is "talented." I don't know that I've ever heard any athlete described in that way using the word "talented." Talent, IMO, is a combination of skill, athleticism, and ability. The intangibles you list all contribute to the overall player, but they don't make a kid "talented." If a 300 pound kid walked into your gym who was tough, had will, had IQ, and was competitive, would you describe that player as "talented?"
|
|
|
Post by dorothymantooth on Sept 5, 2014 7:49:35 GMT -5
I think it's really about how people want to define "talent". Athletic ability and talent, to me are two different things, although athleticism is certainly going to impact how talented a kid is. If a kid touches 10'4, is explosive etc..... that player seems to be more "talented" than someone who is just a better player, or more experienced. Talent "to me" is all the things that contribute to how well a player can play.I would consider a players experience as one more thing that would define how talented she was. As I said, it really comes down to how people want to define talent, or better talent. I don't see this as someone is right or wrong, but probably just defining differently. John Stockton IMO was more talented than Dominique Wilkins, and that's about 4 levels difference in athletic ability. Toughness, will, IQ, competitiveness, will determine how good (talented) a player is in the same way as athleticism will. For a third time, IMO. I respect your opinion, but it doesn't make much sense to me to say that a tough kid who wants to win is "talented." I don't know that I've ever heard any athlete described in that way using the word "talented." Talent, IMO, is a combination of skill, athleticism, and ability. The intangibles you list all contribute to the overall player, but they don't make a kid "talented." If a 300 pound kid walked into your gym who was tough, had will, had IQ, and was competitive, would you describe that player as "talented?" I think it's a little insulting to all of us for you to say "I respect your opinion", I think history speaks for itself. I haven't responded/quoted any post you've made, and I wont in the future. It serves no purpose and I'm not going to subject everyone else anymore to the silliness. As for my response to volleyguy, I just didn't say anything even remotely close to the idea that if a kid had a strong will, IQ and was 300 lbs that would make her "talented" Nobody would read what I posted and think that was my point, unless they wanted my point to be absurd. That's the reason I respectfully bow out from discussion with you. I think we will all be happier. Cheers.
|
|
|
Post by JB Southpaw on Sept 5, 2014 8:06:51 GMT -5
couple of points here, 1st to the Mary Bashing.
Do you realize since 1990, only 8 schools have won the Title, It ain't easy! think of all the great players and teams that haven't won it over those 24 years. She is always recruiting against the curve just because of the conf.
Having the drive to win, or killer instinct is a skill. You have undersized pro athletes in every sport that without their drive wouldn't be where they are. On the reverse side, we've all seen TONS of players who look the part and don't go on to do a thing.
I can't believe people were expecting a flawless match! UF proved last weekend, they weren't there yet by the up and down performance against Oklahoma. While they returned most of their team, those players are in different roles. UF played 11 players while running a 5-1. As with most teams, these teams haven't peaked yet.
|
|
|
Post by dorothymantooth on Sept 5, 2014 8:11:06 GMT -5
couple of points here, 1st to the Mary Bashing. Do you realize since 1990, only 8 schools have won the Title, It ain't easy! think of all the great players and teams that haven't won it over those 24 years. She is always recruiting against the curve just because of the conf. Having the drive to win, or killer instinct is a skill. You have undersized pro athletes in every sport that without their drive wouldn't be where they are. On the reverse side, we've all seen TONS of players who look the part and don't go on to do a thing. I can't believe people were expecting a flawless match! UF proved last weekend, they weren't there yet by the up and down performance against Oklahoma. While they returned most of their team, those players are in different roles. UF played 11 players while running a 5-1. As with most teams, these teams haven't peaked yet. Plus, in all the years Florida has had really great teams, they never had the best team in the country. No team has won a title in her career that wasn't better than Florida. Not like they were choking, or didn't win when they should've. Im sure nobody would like to win a title more than Mary would but, c'mon.
|
|
|
Post by southie on Sept 5, 2014 8:42:53 GMT -5
The thing about Florida is that they haven't come close to matching their "high point" since that national runner-up finish. As other programs have caught up to (or surpassed Florida) as far as recent national success, it has only gotten more difficult for Mary Wise to put the Gators in position for a national title.
In the last 5 years, I think Florida has fallen short of their national tourney seed all but once (2011). While they truly may have been over-seeded, their regular season success isn't translating to success in the NCAA tourney.
I think they are recruiting better now than maybe 5 years ago. So, they will still be one of the most talented teams around. But, other programs that have tasted recent success aren't going away. So, any "re-build" project is that much tougher.
|
|
|
Post by volleyguy on Sept 5, 2014 8:48:16 GMT -5
I don't think anyone in their right mind truly believes that Mary Wise is doing just enough to not get fired. She does so many things well and in the right way.
The context was talent and development. The definition and use of talent is subjective of course (for some reason, I don't think of Logan or Sokolova as talented--though of course they are--they're just good), but for me it means skill, athleticism, and to a much smaller degree, some combination of intangibles that denote potential--IQ, drive, etc. .
|
|
|
Post by dorothymantooth on Sept 5, 2014 8:58:18 GMT -5
I don't think anyone in their right mind truly believes that Mary Wise is doing just enough to not get fired. She does so many things well and in the right way. The context was talent and development. The definition and use of talent is subjective of course (for some reason, I don't think of Logan or Sokolova as talented--though of course they are--they're just good), but for me it means skill, athleticism, and to a much smaller degree, some combination of intangibles that denote potential--IQ, drive, etc. . Let's just say there hasn't been a good job open in the last ten years where Mary wasn't the first phone call AD's have made. When she has come even close to considering UF wastes no time in doing whatever they need to do to make sure she is the coach there for as long as she wants to be coach there. Folks in the SEC are pretty fanatical about winning the SEC, if you do it 21 times your leash could rap around the planet 20 times. Remember, she could've been the head coach at Texas twice! For Athletic Directors she is the total package and a great combination of the things they look for. Successful, charismatic, professional........
|
|
|
Post by volleylover26 on Sept 5, 2014 9:00:43 GMT -5
Curious...thoughts on the change in libero from Unroe to Pole?
|
|
|
Post by liquid running on Sept 5, 2014 10:18:36 GMT -5
Curious...thoughts on the change in libero from Unroe to Pole? I seem to remember Mary saying in an interview that it is going to be a match-to-match decision between Pole and Unroe. I think Unroe has underachieved, but over the past few years I don't think Pole has been any better. I wish Monserez where more consistent. When she is on, she's better than both Unroe and Pole. Not defense-related, but Unroe's serving is beginning to drive me crazy already.
|
|
|
Post by volleyvolleyfan on Sept 5, 2014 10:42:32 GMT -5
Florida State has won 3 of the last 4 matches vs.the Gators. ironic that this match 5th set win was by the same score as round 2 of NCAA last Dec. With FSU taking the win in that 5th set 15-9 ... As well FSU started that 5th set down 0-3 ...
Observations: Florida had 20 service errors-- most in the first 3 sets.. They were serving so aggressive but at what point do you dial it back a bit ? Unroe as always served mostly into the net or long ...IMO she has mentally checked out !! Has lost the libero spot to Pole and when she missed a serve would laugh as she came back into the huddle.. I thought this was odd ?
Starting OHs : Freshman Snyder needs lots of work.. Mary must see lots of potential in her to play her over Recek and Maelette as a starting OH. I have always been a fan of Santos Lamb and she played pretty good .. I'm actually happy to see her get the start..
Right side: Holston is amazing ... She was the star last night of the entire match IMO
Middles: Alhassan is impressive and will only get better.. Joseph will never see the court over Antwi and Alhassan unless one gets injured or needs a brief rest
Dagostino set pretty good considering the bad passing .. I doubt Dettering will see court time over the next 2 years.. Will she wait that long ? Or transfer out like past setters..
Florida State:
Right side: Glad to see freshman Kubura have a break out debut and Vaughn also had good night with critical blocks at critical times in match
Middles: Burrington and Wright both had strong match . Out blocked Gators 12-6 overall .. Burrington hit over .500 on offense
OHs : Walch had another strong showing on offense and defense as well
Libero: Mosher overall good passing considering the aggressive serving of Gators . Most noted in set 5.. Side out% 80% in that set was a difference maker
The Noles had an overall better will to win in that 5th set and IMO that was the winning factor..
|
|
|
Post by liquid running on Sept 5, 2014 11:23:21 GMT -5
Maybe Mary is in a 2004 kind of mood again.
While I questioned her sanity for dropping Moscovic for McGinnis coming off a national runner-up year, I really don't have a problem with her going with Snyder over Recek at this point. Assuming Recek isn't injured, my guess is she's on the bench because she hasn't shown the growth she should, not because Mary is ditching her for a highly-rated freshman recruit.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 12:26:03 GMT -5
I respect your opinion, but it doesn't make much sense to me to say that a tough kid who wants to win is "talented." I don't know that I've ever heard any athlete described in that way using the word "talented." Talent, IMO, is a combination of skill, athleticism, and ability. The intangibles you list all contribute to the overall player, but they don't make a kid "talented." If a 300 pound kid walked into your gym who was tough, had will, had IQ, and was competitive, would you describe that player as "talented?" As for my response to volleyguy, I just didn't say anything even remotely close to the idea that if a kid had a strong will, IQ and was 300 lbs that would make her "talented" LOL. "Toughness, will, IQ, competitiveness, will determine how (talented) a player is..." Sure, buddy.
|
|
|
Post by southie on Sept 5, 2014 12:52:13 GMT -5
I don't think anyone in their right mind truly believes that Mary Wise is doing just enough to not get fired. She does so many things well and in the right way. The context was talent and development. The definition and use of talent is subjective of course (for some reason, I don't think of Logan or Sokolova as talented--though of course they are--they're just good), but for me it means skill, athleticism, and to a much smaller degree, some combination of intangibles that denote potential--IQ, drive, etc. . Let's just say there hasn't been a good job open in the last ten years where Mary wasn't the first phone call AD's have made. When she has come even close to considering UF wastes no time in doing whatever they need to do to make sure she is the coach there for as long as she wants to be coach there. Folks in the SEC are pretty fanatical about winning the SEC, if you do it 21 times your leash could rap around the planet 20 times. Remember, she could've been the head coach at Texas twice! For Athletic Directors she is the total package and a great combination of the things they look for. Successful, charismatic, professional........ While I agree that Coach Wise has created a great program at Florida, if Florida doesn't make a Final Four in the next 5 years, does the AD continue to support her indefinitely, or is time to accept that she can't get Florida back to that elite level she achieved more than 10 years ago? I acknowledge that it's tough to reach the championship match and win it, but an occasional Final Four should be a requirement for a head coach who is probably earning a Top 5 salary nationally.
|
|
|
Post by austintatious on Sept 5, 2014 12:59:49 GMT -5
Just got back to Gainesville. All good points above! The Noles executed a little better and blocked a lot better. Too many errors for UF to win. I have a semi- serious observation and a real question. Mosher, the FSU Libero seems to have a serious endocrine problem. How many sweat times out can one player get away with before the officials intercede? Real times out are for, among other things, disrupting the flow of the opponents server and game. Everybody was sweating by the end of game four, but prior to that, Mosher called for a towel every time UF got a couple of serves in or a couple of points. She has done this before. Any thoughts? Are there any remedies if the officials believe it to be a "tactic"? Yes, referees have tools. They can verbally warn, they can give a delay sanction. BUT, you better be darn sure there is nothing on the floor. Someone gets hurt on next play, and it is their ass. That is why the R2 is to monitor. Also, liberos end up sprawled probably more than any other position, so more opportunities. Is it used for delay, certainly, but all of these aspects must be considered.
|
|
|
Post by dorothymantooth on Sept 5, 2014 13:00:23 GMT -5
Let's just say there hasn't been a good job open in the last ten years where Mary wasn't the first phone call AD's have made. When she has come even close to considering UF wastes no time in doing whatever they need to do to make sure she is the coach there for as long as she wants to be coach there. Folks in the SEC are pretty fanatical about winning the SEC, if you do it 21 times your leash could rap around the planet 20 times. Remember, she could've been the head coach at Texas twice! For Athletic Directors she is the total package and a great combination of the things they look for. Successful, charismatic, professional........ While I agree that Coach Wise has created a great program at Florida, if Florida doesn't make a Final Four in the next 5 years, does the AD continue to support her indefinitely, or is time to accept that she can't get Florida back to that elite level she achieved more than 10 years ago? I acknowledge that it's tough to reach the championship match and win it, but an occasional Final Four should be a requirement for a head coach who is probably earning a Top 5 salary nationally. If she is still winning SEC titles (they will) and advancing to NCAA's absolutely. Mary is loved at UF and her job is as secure as ANY coach in the country. I don't think there is a coach in the country that would dispute that. Including the Russ Rose's, Dunning, Cook, Haley. Particularly in a non-rev sport, I think any AD in the country would consider where they are at now as "at an elite level" If it were mens football and basketball, a drop from top 5 top top 10-15 maybe, but not volleyball especially when you are so highly regarded as a person, role model, as Mary is. It would take a 7 year total bottom out, or a wild Eustachy night out on the town for Florida to let Mary go.
|
|