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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2014 11:36:07 GMT -5
Wisconsin and Illinois may be the two best teams in the B1G today. Not saying it will be that way in six weeks. But with the number of returning starters on these two, they seem to already be operating in top form.
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Post by akbar on Sept 4, 2014 11:42:03 GMT -5
Wisconsin and Illinois may be the two best teams in the B1G today. Not saying it will be that way in six weeks. But with the number of returning starters on these two, they seem to already be operating in top form. I think you may see Wisconsin's true identity after their first loss.
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Post by redbeard2008 on Sept 4, 2014 11:53:44 GMT -5
They had trouble with the altitude at Colorado in Boulder (5,430 ft) last year and were upset (3-1), but then swept Utah in Salt Lake City (4,226 ft). Provo is 4,551 ft. Fort Collins, where Wisconsin is playing, is 5,003 ft. The adjustment is that balls that are in at sea-level can be out at altitude. It can also play havoc with your serve and serve-receive. Realistically, how does a sea-level team train for that? Sheffield mentioned shortening the court and using different balls. Is there anything else you can do, besides conditioning, of course? Arrive early so you can adjust. That's about it. Serving could be a bigger issue than hitting.
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Post by mikegarrison on Sept 4, 2014 12:12:01 GMT -5
Realistically, how does a sea-level team train for that? Sheffield mentioned shortening the court and using different balls. Is there anything else you can do, besides conditioning, of course? Yeah, you need a good vacuum cleaner and a really big bell jar. Actually, I think there are things you could spray on the ball that would reduce air drag, but it might make it a little difficult to play. Um ... no. If there was something you could just spray on to reduce drag, we would be using it for airplanes. And anyway, that would only affect one kind of drag (skin friction). The best way to simulate this would be to use an altitude chamber (or just go practice at altitude!). But I suppose that if you made the ball a little smaller but gave it the same weight and elasticity, you might be able to get something pretty close to using a regular ball at altitude. The problem, though, is Reynold's number. www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/airplane/dragsphere.htmlThe drag depends on the air density, the size of the ball, and the speed it is moving at. But it also depends on the coefficient of drag, which in turn depends on the Reynold's Number, which depends on the speed of the ball and the air density! So the air density and speed directly affect the drag, but they also indirectly affect the drag by affecting whether the air flows smoothly around the ball or whether it separates behind it and leaves a "hole in the air". So it's quite complicated to try to compensate for, because a hard-hit ball will be affected differently than a tipped ball, and a spinning ball will be affected differently than a non-spinning ball.
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Post by notpriddy (COIF) on Sept 4, 2014 12:19:56 GMT -5
Bring in a prof or two from your Physics Dept. to explain high altitude effects on the ball.
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Post by azvb on Sept 4, 2014 12:22:24 GMT -5
Shoot, I was just going to post the exact explanation, mike . You sound like my engineer son-in-law, and that's a good thing. I remember a football team last year (Texas maybe?) that trained with some sort of masks before coming to Provo. Hope I can manage the stairs in the Fieldhouse okay.
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Post by mikegarrison on Sept 4, 2014 12:44:46 GMT -5
I remember a football team last year (Texas maybe?) that trained with some sort of masks before coming to Provo. Hope I can manage the stairs in the Fieldhouse okay. :P That's a completely different issue, of course. Altitude not only affects how the ball flies, but it also affects how the athletes breathe. I'm an aeronautical engineer, Jim, not a doctor! So I'll leave that part of it to the doctors. But basically, the best way to prepare for the altitude is to go to the altitude as soon as they can and practice in it as much as they can. The Huskies are not in school right now, so possibly they were able to fly to Provo early this past week and do their practices on site. Or maybe not. I don't know if the rules or the budget cover that.
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Post by redbeard2008 on Sept 4, 2014 13:35:16 GMT -5
Provo isn't as bad as Boulder - 4,500 ft vs 5,400 ft. Conditioning can also make a difference - from what I saw last weekend, UW looks pretty fit.
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Post by tomclen on Sept 4, 2014 14:48:10 GMT -5
I remember a football team last year (Texas maybe?) that trained with some sort of masks before coming to Provo. Hope I can manage the stairs in the Fieldhouse okay. That's a completely different issue, of course. Altitude not only affects how the ball flies, but it also affects how the athletes breathe. I'm an aeronautical engineer, Jim, not a doctor! So I'll leave that part of it to the doctors. But basically, the best way to prepare for the altitude is to go to the altitude as soon as they can and practice in it as much as they can. The Huskies are not in school right now, so possibly they were able to fly to Provo early this past week and do their practices on site. Or maybe not. I don't know if the rules or the budget cover that. According the the UW VB Twitter feed, the team arrived in Utah yesterday. They are practicing today:
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Post by mikegarrison on Sept 4, 2014 16:38:20 GMT -5
I bet they are doing lots of serving reps. I know they won't have forgotten how they lost to CSU in the 2nd round a few years ago, due in large part to serves that went just long.
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Post by oldunc on Sept 4, 2014 18:19:02 GMT -5
Yeah, you need a good vacuum cleaner and a really big bell jar. Actually, I think there are things you could spray on the ball that would reduce air drag, but it might make it a little difficult to play. Um ... no. If there was something you could just spray on to reduce drag, we would be using it for airplanes. And anyway, that would only affect one kind of drag (skin friction). I'm not an aeronautics engineer, and my last physics course was near 50 years ago, but it seems to me that anything you spray on the ball is going to effect the coefficient of friction, which would have to effect the drag coefficient. Surely something would decrease it- not to say that it would stay on or in any way be practical to use; a ball covered with oil of bitter almonds, for instance, might fly like a condor, but would raise other problems. I do seem to recall the question coming up with regard to golf- most efforts to influence air drag have been focused on diddling with the dimples, but I'm sure there was some sort of spray used too- PTFE, maybe- all of that stuff, naturally, being banned.
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Post by mikegarrison on Sept 4, 2014 19:36:52 GMT -5
Um ... no. If there was something you could just spray on to reduce drag, we would be using it for airplanes. And anyway, that would only affect one kind of drag (skin friction). I'm not an aeronautics engineer, and my last physics course was near 50 years ago, but it seems to me that anything you spray on the ball is going to effect the coefficient of friction, which would have to effect the drag coefficient. Surely something would decrease it- not to say that it would stay on or in any way be practical to use; a ball covered with oil of bitter almonds, for instance, might fly like a condor, but would raise other problems. I do seem to recall the question coming up with regard to golf- most efforts to influence air drag have been focused on diddling with the dimples, but I'm sure there was some sort of spray used too- PTFE, maybe- all of that stuff, naturally, being banned. Sorry, but there is no polite way to say this. You are mixing up different concepts. The scale of things is way off. Altitude has a much bigger effect than a little change in surface roughness, and the effects of surface roughness can be counter-intuitive. They also can go in different ways (more drag v. less drag) at different Reynolds numbers. volleytalk.proboards.com/thread/43857/physics-question-on-float-servesvolleytalk.proboards.com/thread/39383/vball-evolution-topic-float-servevolleytalk.proboards.com/thread/39518/why-float-serves
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Post by lionsfan on Sept 4, 2014 19:47:43 GMT -5
I do seem to recall the question coming up with regard to golf- most efforts to influence air drag have been focused on diddling with the dimples... My new favorite phrase
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Post by tomclen on Sept 4, 2014 19:57:38 GMT -5
LPT: Don't argue with Mike. Smart sumbitch.
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Post by mikegarrison on Sept 4, 2014 21:57:11 GMT -5
LPT: Don't argue with Mike. Smart sumbitch. Such a false predicate. Just because he (or anyone else) is smart does not mean he (or anyone else) knows what he is talking about in any given context. True! I openly admit a LOT of people here know a lot more about volleyball than I do. But I do know a lot more about aerodynamics than most folks.
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