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Post by ohi87 on Oct 3, 2015 21:15:57 GMT -5
Thanks for the insight. I never even thought about TV markets and academic requirements to be a part of a conference!
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Post by vbcoltrane on Oct 3, 2015 21:27:43 GMT -5
Where did you get that from? Texas almost joined Pac-10/12, along with Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Colorado, Texas Tech, and Texas A&M. Colorado, Texas, Texas A&M are members of AAU. By the way, Bakersfield is affiliate member of Pac-12 and certainly not AAU member. Also, if a non-research school wanted to join the Pac-12, it would happen if it added value to the TV deal Not all PAC 12 schools are in the AAU. In the BIG 10, all schools except Nebraska are in the AAU And, I know the B1G really wants Nebraska to get readmitted to the AAU, but it's not really that easy. I had read some article about the technical reason why Nebraska lost AAU membership. There are certain criteria and Nebraska was close to the bottom in terms of that criteria for AAU members and then eventually they couldn't meet the criteria. It's been said that they would not have been admitted to the B1G if they were not a member of AAU, but, of course, they WERE at the time they were admitted to the conference. From one of the articles after they lost AAU status: " We have known we were at risk of this for ten years, and successfully fought off a similar threat in 2000," Perlman said. "I had hoped our extraordinary accomplishments and steep trajectory would have made us less vulnerable, but the AAU's approach to the review made this result inevitable." UNL joined the AAU in 1909. Perlman said UNL has ranked at the bottom of the AAU's members for more than a decade based on the group's ranking system, which ranks all research universities. That ranking system consists of four criteria: research expenditures, National Academy members, faculty awards (from a specified list) and citations. Those criteria are weighted based on the number of tenure-track faculty at a particular university. Based on those criteria, a number of non-AAU institutions ranked higher than 15 AAU institutions, including UNL, Perlman said."
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Post by redbeard2008 on Oct 3, 2015 22:13:05 GMT -5
Membership in the AAU has never been a requirement for membership in the Pac-12. Not being in the AAU doesn't mean a school is not a "research university", which originally was a classification used by the Carnegie Classification of Institutions of Higher Education to designate schools engaged in extensive research activity. While the Carnegie Classification has been overhauled and no longer has a single such classification, many schools still lay claim to it, based on whether they: Carnegie Research I UniversitiesThe only Pac-12 university that is not in the AAU or included in the Carnegie Classification is Washington State, which was grandfathered in to provide a travel partner for Washington. It is true that the Pac was willing to bend its standards if it meant landing Texas, but that doesn't mean they'd do it for Hawaii (or Oklahoma or Oklahoma State, by themselves).
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Post by vbcoltrane on Oct 3, 2015 22:18:57 GMT -5
To be honest, I don't know why the B1G makes such a big deal about it - probably just tradition - its members have always been AAU members for the most part. It's not like a school can't be good academically and not be an AAU member. Anyway, it's not like they're gonna kick Nebraska out, so the Huskers AAU status really doesn't matter at this point.
And, of course, as you point out, "research university" is not contemporaneous with AAU membership.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2015 23:49:27 GMT -5
Only a few things keep Hawaii out of a major conference. Small facts like, their location sucks, their TV market sucks, their academics suck, and their athletics suck. Other than that, there's nothing that keeps them from being invited to a major conference.
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Post by hammer on Oct 4, 2015 0:40:47 GMT -5
Only a few things keep Hawaii out of a major conference. Small facts like, their location sucks, their TV market sucks, their academics suck, and their athletics suck. Other than that, there's nothing that keeps them from being invited to a major conference. Man, I'm not sure that was very PC, but I guess you could summarize your post by saying the truth sucks.
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Post by redbeard2008 on Oct 4, 2015 0:49:40 GMT -5
Five or six football road matches in Hawaii is not cheap. For other sports, Hawaii has no traveling partner, so two teams are traveling for two matches/games, rather than for four matches/games. Scheduling issues abound. If the WCC wanted Hawaii as a member, they'd already be a member.
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Post by ohi87 on Oct 4, 2015 1:38:39 GMT -5
Only a few things keep Hawaii out of a major conference. Small facts like, their location sucks, their TV market sucks, their academics suck, and their athletics suck. Other than that, there's nothing that keeps them from being invited to a major conference. Ha ha ha. Exaggerate much? I was hoping for an intelligent discussion, but maybe you went to UH.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2015 2:24:38 GMT -5
You are correct, I should have provided facts so I could be a bit more fair to my Ohana brethren. Hawaii's academics are ranked 161, tied with Biola, Immaculata, and LaVerne University. I've never heard of two of them. Their TV market is 72, roughly tied with Ames, Iowa. Their athletic department is ranked 101, just behind Dayton and slightly ahead of Buffalo. No conference, much less a power 5 conference will be attracted by those attributes.
Their location, although is beautiful, is unappealing for any team to travel a minimum of 5 hours and a $500 air ticket, not to mention food and hotels on the island. The fan base is marginal in terms of attendance and there is no recruiting base that would attract teams wanting to play there for recruits. How are those for FACTS? I will await your intelligent conversation.
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Post by Barefoot In Kailua on Oct 4, 2015 2:37:55 GMT -5
UH has no leverage. Small TV market, tremendous travel costs, nothing to offer.
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Post by ohi87 on Oct 4, 2015 3:28:07 GMT -5
You are correct, I should have provided facts so I could be a bit more fair to my Ohana brethren. Hawaii's academics are ranked 161, tied with Biola, Immaculata, and LaVerne University. I've never heard of two of them. Their TV market is 72, roughly tied with Ames, Iowa. Their athletic department is ranked 101, just behind Dayton and slightly ahead of Buffalo. No conference, much less a power 5 conference will be attracted by those attributes. Their location, although is beautiful, is unappealing for any team to travel a minimum of 5 hours and a $500 air ticket, not to mention food and hotels on the island. The fan base is marginal in terms of attendance and there is no recruiting base that would attract teams wanting to play there for recruits. How are those for FACTS? I will await your intelligent conversation. Academics: 161 out of 415. Could be worse. TV Market: 72 is better than 76 (Nebraska), 85 (Wisconsin) Athletic Department: Ranked 65, only behind a handful of schools NOT in the Power 5. Location: This is a legitimate reason for smaller schools, but really, once a year to travel to Hawai'i is gonna break these bigger schools budgets!? From WA to HI it's $418. From WA to AZ it's $240. $178 difference, whoop-tee-doo, they could save that by not giving all of their players new shoes!! Fan Base: Of course "in terms of attendance" we wouldn't compare nationally, there are only 375,000 people in Honolulu versus nearly double that for most Power 5 schools. But have you been in the Stan Sheriff Center and Aloha Stadium?
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Post by dorothymantooth on Oct 4, 2015 7:52:16 GMT -5
UH has no leverage. Small TV market, tremendous travel costs, nothing to offer. Yes. If you are going to get into a top conference you have to bring lots to the table with no negatives.
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Post by Paulj on Oct 4, 2015 8:51:36 GMT -5
It's been said a man's favorite day is when he buys his boat, and his second favorite day is when he sells his boat. The same could be said about Hawaii travel...it sounds spectacular but once you've done it you see it is a big zero.
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Post by vbnerd on Oct 4, 2015 9:54:45 GMT -5
Just some facts here...
Oregon State joined the Pac 12 in 1915 so when they were admitted, cable subscribers were not a consideration or they may not have been admitted. And no, the Pac 12 is not going to kick them out because there is something to be said for 100 years of history together.
Also, when you compare media markets and schools, it isn't what market they are in, it's what markets that school can deliver for games and even feature shows. Honolulu may rank higher than Madison, but Wisconsin also delivers Milwaukee (35) and Green Bay (70) as well as Wausau, Duluth and Eau Claire. Nebraska gets you every television in the entire state, if they don't pack up and go to the game.
Nebraska is the smallest state with it's university in the Big 5 - 1.8 million people, but they average 90,000 fans at a football game and this weekend Illinois expected 5,000-7,000 Nebraska fans buying tickets, staying in their hotels and spending money, which was probably expected and I would think it was a factor when Illinois voted to accept Nebraska.
Hawaii is a state of 1.4 million who gets 25,000 people for a home football game and I don't have numbers but I'd be shocked if 1/4 of them flew to every road game. When they were really good and USC came for the season opener, they had 44,000 in a 50,000 seat stadium. West Virginia had 55,000 for Georgia Southern last month.
Besides, isn't the Hawaii athletic budget still in the red? Nobody will touch that.
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Post by psuer1989 on Oct 4, 2015 9:55:32 GMT -5
I would disagree with Rutgers being very good in football (or any sport right now). A school that can list two only two good years in any sport does not qualify as "very successful". History of winning seasons, big bowl appearances and solid fan support is a good start for saying "very good". I can list two years PSU made the NCAA Tourney, that doesn't make them very good in basketball!
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