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Post by Fight On! on Mar 21, 2017 15:45:42 GMT -5
NAGVA has a men's division? I've never heard of this. NAGVA is a COED league. I've played on teams with straight, gay, trans, and women lol. It is played on men's net. But everyone can play. I guess it isn't strictly men's in that sense.
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Post by Hawk Attack on Mar 21, 2017 16:00:43 GMT -5
I know this individual personally, and I know many of her transgendered friends. In NAGVA tournaments they usually play in the women's division if it is offered. They don't usually win, actually. It is important to remember that the testosterone blockers they take mean they actually have less testosterone in their body than genetic women, which can cause a drop in athletic performance, increased fatigue, etc. If a transgender woman is truly on hormone replacement therapy as prescribed by a doctor, I doubt she has much advantage over other women, in most cases. You seem quite knowledgeable about this. Obviously, in the cited case no one is really harmed. It does not matter and everyone should play where they are comfortable. But what about at the Olympic level or even NCAA. Conceivably, the drugs would be done by then yet you still have the frame and muscle mass of a man? I have worked with a transgender female athlete interested in competing in crossfit. The HRT reduces muscle mass at a rate difficult to gain proper muscle contraction speed in athletics. It actively combats the sliding filament theory (how muscle proteins link to generate movement), and as someone posted earlier, hormones like testosterone and muscle proteins have a harder time activating under HRT. In a sport like running (which is itself a seriously complex muscle action) it can be perhaps be easier to train the body to perform the motions necessary to compete at an unfair advantage. However, in a sport like volleyball the muscle actions more than likely will not be at the advantage of a transgender female due to the amount of muscle actions required to perform each skill. Lateral movement, arm swing, floor skills, and explosive generation would all be severely hampered by the HRT. Natural physical attributes like being 6'10 would be different, but not all that different from women like Gamova, Ting Zhu, and Haneef-Park (who all have the distinct advantage of training their muscles in a consistent muscle hormone reaction environment).
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Post by Pipe Attack on Mar 21, 2017 21:50:19 GMT -5
You seem quite knowledgeable about this. Obviously, in the cited case no one is really harmed. It does not matter and everyone should play where they are comfortable. But what about at the Olympic level or even NCAA. Conceivably, the drugs would be done by then yet you still have the frame and muscle mass of a man? The drugs are never done. For example, a post-op transsexual person doesn't have gonads anymore after they are removed. So for a t-girl, she has no testicles and no ovaries. HRT continues to assure health. Such an interesting topic. OK, but to compete as a woman, do you need to have your sex changed below the waist or hormone replacement therapy is enough? Because I read you don't have to change your down there. If that's the case, can you play as a female that is undergoing HRT for over a year, yet still have a pecker? But then it also states that you have to change your birth documents -- so can you say you're a female but still have a male organ? I guess that's what I'm really saying. And would it be the same effects? A male that is going through HRT but still has male organs vs. a male that is going through HRT while also undergoing surgery down there? I mean there are so many complexities.
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Post by azvb on Mar 21, 2017 22:10:05 GMT -5
It is possible. And some trans athletes I know have described their experience that way. Yet hormones were about to play a dirty trick on my mind and body. Going up to swing at the ball I found myself suddenly too slow, having bizarre aches in my shoulder that felt as if a red-hot iron was being pressed against the muscles deep beneath my skin. My timing was off by about half a second, then a second, and before I could even adjust my body was two seconds behind on my approach. My male muscles that I had developed since puberty were disappearing at an increasingly painful rate. My running slowed down, my swinging got weaker, my vertical jump diminished rapidly. I felt as though all the experience I had accumulated over the years had vanished, as it was like riding a bicycle for the first time. Something I had done so often and had practiced for so long with masculine muscles meant absolutely nothing with the new muscular structure my body was developing. It was painful to see how slow I had become again, to feel my hips wobbling when I ran instead of being squared up in a full-blown sprint. My coordination had changed, and I needed to realign my mind and body to be proficient. A life goal of mine had always been to play women's volleyball, and I wouldn't start community college full-time until I had met all the legal requirements and had reached a point where I was decently satisfied with my athletic ability. www.google.com/amp/www.outsports.com/platform/amp/2016/6/1/11814342/transgender-ncaa-volleyball-chloe-psyche-andersonThis could be me describing the first time I played in the Master's division.😐
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2017 0:31:30 GMT -5
Curious, can a non handicapped person play/participate in the paralympics? Can a non-Jewish person play in the Hebrew games (is that what they're called)? Can a 35 year old play in the Senior Olympics? This man is still is biologically a man, right? If a DNA test is done, it comes back male? Were you actually curious?
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Post by mongoliavolleyball on Mar 22, 2017 1:09:54 GMT -5
I think instead of making things so complicated... I think it is easier just to see what reproductive organ they have down there and based on that... that is where they play. Male organ... Men's Volleyball. Female organ... Women's Volleyball... If still disagreement then just play co-ed.
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Post by Sorry Ass Sal on Mar 22, 2017 2:04:48 GMT -5
I think instead of making things so complicated... I think it is easier just to see what reproductive organ they have down there and based on that... that is where they play. Male organ... Men's Volleyball. Female organ... Women's Volleyball... If still disagreement then just play co-ed. Do you know what transgender means?
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Post by Fight On! on Mar 22, 2017 2:07:06 GMT -5
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Post by azvb on Mar 22, 2017 11:44:28 GMT -5
Curious, can a non handicapped person play/participate in the paralympics? Can a non-Jewish person play in the Hebrew games (is that what they're called)? Can a 35 year old play in the Senior Olympics? This man is still is biologically a man, right? If a DNA test is done, it comes back male? Were you actually curious? Yep. Not about the senior olympics, but everything else. It doesn't seem fair non handicapped can compete in sitting volleyball, wheelchair basketball.
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Post by azvb on Mar 22, 2017 11:46:02 GMT -5
You seem quite knowledgeable about this. Obviously, in the cited case no one is really harmed. It does not matter and everyone should play where they are comfortable. But what about at the Olympic level or even NCAA. Conceivably, the drugs would be done by then yet you still have the frame and muscle mass of a man? I have worked with a transgender female athlete interested in competing in crossfit. The HRT reduces muscle mass at a rate difficult to gain proper muscle contraction speed in athletics. It actively combats the sliding filament theory (how muscle proteins link to generate movement), and as someone posted earlier, hormones like testosterone and muscle proteins have a harder time activating under HRT. In a sport like running (which is itself a seriously complex muscle action) it can be perhaps be easier to train the body to perform the motions necessary to compete at an unfair advantage. However, in a sport like volleyball the muscle actions more than likely will not be at the advantage of a transgender female due to the amount of muscle actions required to perform each skill. Lateral movement, arm swing, floor skills, and explosive generation would all be severely hampered by the HRT. Natural physical attributes like being 6'10 would be different, but not all that different from women like Gamova, Ting Zhu, and Haneef-Park (who all have the distinct advantage of training their muscles in a consistent muscle hormone reaction environment). So, I can blame my diminishing skills on the hormones I'm taking and not my age!!!!!! Sweet!
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Post by azvb on Mar 22, 2017 11:51:52 GMT -5
Curious, can a non handicapped person play/participate in the paralympics? Can a non-Jewish person play in the Hebrew games (is that what they're called)? Can a 35 year old play in the Senior Olympics? This man is still is biologically a man, right? If a DNA test is done, it comes back male? Maybe coed volleyball is the answer? There are several chromosomal combinations besides XX and XY. Shall those individuals be excluded? There are many individuals playing volleyball in the Paralympics who are capable of standing and walking. But these individuals still have handicaps, right?
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Post by Fight On! on Mar 22, 2017 16:43:48 GMT -5
There are several chromosomal combinations besides XX and XY. Shall those individuals be excluded? There are many individuals playing volleyball in the Paralympics who are capable of standing and walking. But these individuals still have handicaps, right? By some definition, yes. And Tia Thompson is a woman by legal and medical definition.
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Post by rogero1 on Mar 22, 2017 23:02:50 GMT -5
I think instead of making things so complicated... I think it is easier just to see what reproductive organ they have down there and based on that... that is where they play. Male organ... Men's Volleyball. Female organ... Women's Volleyball... If still disagreement then just play co-ed. So, which gender do you count a transgender person, male or female? You do know that for co-ed play there is a limit (generally 3 & 3 of each gender) as to how many you can have for each gender on the court at anytime?
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Post by mongoliavolleyball on Mar 23, 2017 0:51:38 GMT -5
I think instead of making things so complicated... I think it is easier just to see what reproductive organ they have down there and based on that... that is where they play. Male organ... Men's Volleyball. Female organ... Women's Volleyball... If still disagreement then just play co-ed. So, which gender do you count a transgender person, male or female? You do know that for co-ed play there is a limit (generally 3 & 3 of each gender) as to how many you can have for each gender on the court at anytime? I don't think you want to hear my opinion about this subject because lots of people here would start hating (even though its my opinion)... but for co-ed whatever the person chooses then just fill the rest in accordingly...
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Post by lemonice on Mar 23, 2017 1:30:27 GMT -5
Curious, can a non handicapped person play/participate in the paralympics? Can a non-Jewish person play in the Hebrew games (is that what they're called)? Can a 35 year old play in the Senior Olympics? This man is still is biologically a man, right? If a DNA test is done, it comes back male? Maybe coed volleyball is the answer? There are several chromosomal combinations besides XX and XY. Shall those individuals be excluded? There are many individuals playing volleyball in the Paralympics who are capable of standing and walking. I wanna inject a different view point in the discussion. Since, by definition, the creation of women sports is a protected class, I see no problems in excluding people based purely on sex. If you don't respect the parameters given for the protected class (XX), you are still free to compete in the "open" category. Hawk brought up an interesting point regarding the (un)easiness of training when transitioning, nonetheless inherent genetic advantages to those born XY* exists (the most basic, average height). A more nuanced and historically interesting POW is given in the following article, with one of the leader in the trans community sportsscientists.com/2016/05/hyperandrogenism-women-vs-women-vs-men-sport-qa-joanna-harper/Edit * I know XXY and etc exists, it was just a simplification for argument sake
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