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Post by Fight On! on Mar 23, 2017 2:40:12 GMT -5
"If you don't respect the parameters given for the protected class (XX), you are still free to compete in the "open" category."
What is the "open "category for volleyball at the Olympics or NCAA?
I read the article you referenced, and in it the author's interlocutor clearly explains that after nine months of HRT her performance levels in her chosen sport matched that of other women.
She also explained that she believes that transgender women with testosterone levels that fall within the typical range for women should be allowed to compete with them.
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Post by lemonice on Mar 23, 2017 12:58:10 GMT -5
I posted that article because it presents a more nuanced and knowledgeable view of the matter, not because it supports my views.
Nonetheless, here his her quote:" While human rights advocates are deliriously happy over the CAS ruling, those who love women’s sport are mortified. Those Intersex athletes who previously used medications to reduce their T are now off of those medications, and are running faster. Allowing these athletes to compete in women’s sport with their serious testosterone-based advantage threatens the very fabric of women’s sport."
Moreover if you read the interviewer question, it is clear that "I ask because other transgender athletes have placed themselves very, very firmly in the CAS/Dutee Chand camp, and I’m fascinated that you don’t"
"If one believes that women’s sports are vitally important, and one has little regard for the rights of a small segment of humanity, then suggesting that women’s sport should only be for those who are 100% female is not unreasonable.
On the other hand, if one is passionate about the rights of marginalized minorities such as intersex or transgender women, and one is not as invested in the benefits of sport to all women, then it is not unreasonable to suggest that anyone who considers herself female should be allowed to compete as nature made her.
Since I believe in both the vital importance of women’s sport and the rights of intersex and transgender women, then I am forced to consider a compromise position, one virtually identical to that espoused by the IAAF and the IOC."
Her whole POW is that rather than gender, they want to discriminate by what is called functional testosterone.
Just because I hold a view, doesn't mean that I can't further the discussion in another direction.
To clarify my previous point, as of right now there is no unified view on allowing transgenders. My point is exactly that unless you are xx, you should be allowed/made to participate with males.
One more reason why I found problematic allowing transgender in female competitions, is that the reverse situation is unheard of. I.e. a transgeder male capable of topping male competition with similar skill levels and experience. Take the recent case of the trasngeder woman in the Italian A2-league (one step before pro) where she dominated her debut game with 28 points and 48% of efficieny (http://www.gazzetta.it/Volley/19-02-2017/volley-a-2-donne-tiffany-esordio-mvp-entra-ribalta-destino-palmi-180896132225.shtml), I am hard press to find a reverse situation for female to male (maybe is just ignorance on my part). You will de facto allow only a one way transferral of competition
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Post by Fight On! on Mar 23, 2017 15:05:04 GMT -5
The article is about running, and is almost all about intersex athletes. There is very little discussion about transgender individuals. It is not highly relevant to the discussion here about a transgender woman. Your point about transgender men not being able to beat other men in competition is irrelevant as well. This discussion is not about intersex runners, or about transgender men, it is about a transgender woman playing volleyball. Furthermore, I am pretty sure the IOC did away with chromosomal testing a long time ago for a reason. Three cheers for your push to take us back to the 1960s. Finally, the perspective is not that knowledgeable or nuanced, as much as it is based on heavy bias. The interview respondent admits to only being involved in this field since around 2009 and her bias is evident - something like, "if women's sports is to matter at all, it must be protected from involvement from anyone who is not a typical woman."
Still, I like that the article says, let transgender women compete with women if their testosterone levels are within an appropriate range.
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Post by lemonice on Mar 23, 2017 18:07:48 GMT -5
Ehm, the interviewee is Joanna Harper one of the leaders for trasgender rights for IAAF, regarding how to classify women sports (available testosterone the the partecipant) Chromosomal testing had been indeed done away in the 80s (60s? the article specifies it), and I am simply expressing my opinion. Btw, you can't go on and classify sport by sport, and deciding for which one is transitioning relevant to the performance ( I am assuming just like in europe there's a unifing body for athletes in USA).
Regarding volleyball specifically, I brought the much relevant case of the Brazilian trangender player that dominated in her debut at the A2 in Italy ( I linked primary sources in Italian).
You may disagree with my opinion or with Harper's ( on T-levels ) but you haven't brought much to the table yourself on that.
Regarding the opposite situation, it's very much relevant when looking at unfair advantage ( touch upon by hawk himeself, but not by you when rebutting). You can't legislate in vacuum.
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Post by lemonice on Mar 23, 2017 18:35:17 GMT -5
I would like to add, that looking at the reverse situation is also important. It shows that hormone treatment is definitely not the best indicator of athletic performances. If it were, you would see that transgender men would win male competition at a comparable frequency of transgender women.
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Post by lemonice on Mar 23, 2017 21:48:28 GMT -5
I want to also point out how problematic is to accept a simple hormonal treatment. From a performance level, there are set parameters that transgenders athletes must respect in order to be eligible to partecipate in competitive events. Problem is, this parameters are absolutely arbitrary, and set to some limits ( which I assume has been decided from a statistical analysis of what the current female population possesses ).
The problem arises when there's an existing normative that allows certain athletes to fictionally raise their hormonal levels to a given limits, while imposing other athletes to not change what nature has originally given them (this is especially true with the raise and diffusion of the biological passport, which, unlike previous tests that were based on a trheshold limit, is based on tracking your results over the years).
Not arguing these points is incredibly shortsighted and disingenuous from any actor who wants to have a genuine discussion about the existence of women sports. As is disingenuous not tackling the question of the existence of women sports.
The previous article summarize my stance incredibly well:
"If one believes that women’s sports are vitally important, and one has little regard for the rights of a small segment of humanity, then suggesting that women’s sport should only be for those who are 100% female is not unreasonable.
On the other hand, if one is passionate about the rights of marginalized minorities such as intersex or transgender women, and one is not as invested in the benefits of sport to all women, then it is not unreasonable to suggest that anyone who considers herself female should be allowed to compete as nature made her."
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Post by Fight On! on Mar 23, 2017 22:47:41 GMT -5
Take a chill pill, you're going around and around in circles and not saying anything of substance anymore. Harper clearly argues in much of her writing that transgender women do not possess a competitive advantage over other women and there is virtually zero evidence to prove any cases in which they have in competition (considering that their testosterone levels are within normal limits).
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Post by lemonice on Mar 23, 2017 23:00:54 GMT -5
Yeah, and her arguments are not reflective of what actually happens.
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Post by bradenvolleymob on Nov 24, 2017 10:22:40 GMT -5
Spain now has a transgender woman playing professionally in the second-division side of a SuperLiga squad. As compared to the original player who prompted this thread, Omaira Perdomo is a much more accomplished player and has a much greater chance of actually making an Olympic team. volleymob.com/transgender-volleyball-player-makes-debut-spanish-club/
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Post by James on Nov 24, 2017 10:49:19 GMT -5
I don't want to get into the details of the current debate, but I do think the potential down-the-road debate might have people questioning today's opinions. First of all, let's be honest. There will probably be a lot more male-to-female athletes competing than female-to-male. So this will always be a bigger issue for women's sports. A transgendered woman makes the team -- great, diversity! But we're celebrating a rare event. What happens when two or three transgendered women make the team? Will the people that advocate for more opportunities for women still be on board when former-men take up more than one spot on whatever team you're looking at? Yes, I know right now the proper way to think of transgendered women is as equal to born-women (for lack of a better term). But as more transgendered women start to displace born-women in sports, will those women still be OK with former men taking opportunities they fought for?
I'm not arguing either side today. I just think maybe that future discussion should start sooner rather than later. It's easy to say you're for something when it rarely happens.
(Hopefully, this will be taken in the respectful manner I meant, even if my language wasn't the proper terminology!)
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Post by blastingsand on Nov 24, 2017 12:12:39 GMT -5
Isn't this exactly the same scenario that tennis had with Renne Richards? I remember a 30 on 30 ESPN film on it.
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Post by platypus on Nov 24, 2017 12:32:06 GMT -5
Privacy laws may dictate that the athlete’s original sex may never be disclosed, so I’m not sure if people would ever find out that a transsexual is playing.
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Post by platypus on Nov 24, 2017 12:33:06 GMT -5
If one is playing in our midst right now, would people demand to know?
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Post by alhorford90 on Nov 24, 2017 12:50:19 GMT -5
So happy for her
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