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Post by guest2 on Aug 15, 2017 1:51:45 GMT -5
Nicole is my favorite player but she hasn't been in the class Sarah is now, in six or seven years, and even at her peak, she wasn't.
The nonsensical statement that "the product stinks" is something most fans agree on. The US women (who are the AVP women minus Kerri) are at their lowest point in 15 years. We have one elite player who has been injured all year. In 2008, we had four teams capable of winning five star FIVB events, at most other times since 2000, we have had at least 3, now we have none.
Injecting a bunch of teams that couldn't qualify otherwise is not going to make that product better. "They are trying really hard" is not an excuse for why someone should watch a lousy product, at least it isn't if you are not teaching a KG.
Hughes is better than Pavan? Hughes is the future of volleyball but right now she is not even a top 10 defender.
All 4 Brazilian defenders Ludwig April Humana Paredes Labourer
Those eight are in a different class than Sara right now.
The Czech defender is also better
Then there are a half dozen or so players (Barnsley, Branagh, Anouk etc.) who are just as good. Depending on what your personal taste is, digging balls versus siding out, Sara may not be in the top 15 defenders. Great potential but what has she done?
Do we have any evidence based on results that Sara is even better than Brooke Sweat?
Meanwhile here is the list of blockers better than Pavan:
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Post by guest2 on Aug 15, 2017 1:57:54 GMT -5
Right now he does? Ricardo hasn't made an FIVB podium in three years. Here is why, the women's side stinks outside of maybe 3-4 teams and Sarah is the best player in the event. Plus she chose to play Manhattan even with the World Tour Finals early next week. Why not recognize she did that - which is more than many players did in Seattle - and give her a break and make the event better. Watching Janelle Allen/Kim Smith play Sheila Shaw and Zhang's corpse is like watching off white paint dry. Throw Dowdy and Pollock into the mix and you may as well euthanize any remaining fans and thats before you even get into the abomination that will be some of those AVP Next teams. Since the AVP is already punishing more deserving teams with the AVP Next thing, why not use the same mechanism to do something to make the event more compelling. Sarah has four FIVB finishes this year that would be career high AVP finishes for every woman listed above except Zhang. That should be enough to merit some consideration [/quote] "The abomination that will be some of those AVPNext teams." "[Y]ou may as well euthanize any remaining fans" Could you possibly be any more of an impolite, incorrect and incredibly negative "fan?" I loved watching Shaw and Zhang make their little run in Hermosa. I love watching the quali gals, one of whom who might become the next Kerri or Misty. These events are so much fun to go to and watch in person, and I know Guest2 went overseas so now its all about Pavan apparently. She's had a very good year on the FIVB - there is no denying that, and I congratulate her for it. But to actually state that she is the best player in the world? And to just trash every player trying to make it and scratch their way to becoming better? C'mon, Dude. The non-sensical statement that "the product stinks and she makes it better" is hardly a reason to disrupt the established wild card process and screw someone deserving out of the WC just because you think she is so amazing. Geddy hit it on the head - April Ross is, and has been over an extended period of time, so much better than Pavan that it is not even close. Yeah, the product stinks, but I think I'll post nonstop in these threads nonstop. Same with Branagh - like Ross, a way better player over an extended period of time. Lucking into an awesome partner and clicking well for a season or two internationally hardly makes you the best player in the world - just ask Zhang. I will go even further out on the limb and say that, in my humble and probably idiotic opinion, Hughes is a better all-around player than Pavan already, and that Summer Ross would be right there with her if she had a Humana-Paredes level partner. Internationally, Ludwig and Larissa are so much better than Pavan that it is not even arguable, and if you are only looking at bigs, Walkenhorst is wayyyyyyyy better than Pavan as well. She has exactly one international win in 46 tries, hardly the record you would expect from the best player in the world. [/quote] Oh and by the way the AVP Next people didn't get the WCs because they deserved it, those WCs are awarded that way to promote grass roots volleyball and to get people playing AVP Next events, which is a laudable goal but the tradeoff is inferior teams in the Main Draw
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Post by beavis on Aug 15, 2017 2:24:18 GMT -5
So most fans agree that the product stinks? Do you have any idea how many people attend and enjoy these events but who don't happen to be among the core group of posters on Volleytalk? I guess you have personally surveyed the thousands of fans at Seattle, New York, Hermosa, etc. to jump to your baseless statement that "most fans agree that the product stinks?"
So how many AVP's have you been to this year? 3 here, and will be a total of 5 by the end of the season, and they are not only awesome to attend and watch in person, but the entire environment and ambience surrounding them is getting better and better each year. Just because you happen to think that all of the players suck, that none of the matches are worth watching, and that the level of play is simply awful does not make it so. In fact, it pretty much makes you a bigger idiot than you were when you made all of your groundless statements about male coaches never being allowed to coach females because they can't stop themselves from sexually harassing them. Except for one thing - your posts now are even more condescending and negative. Who are you to simply cast a huge net over an entire group of players and say that they all stink, and that none of their matches are even worth watching? It must be awesome being you and being so awesome!!! If you have nothing at all positive to say about the AVP, here is an idea - why don't you just keep your amazingly judgmental and negative thoughts to yourself?
Way to also spend an entire post outlining who, in your opinion, is better than Sara Hughes. All 4 Brazilian defenders? 9 defenders in a totally different class right now, with another 6 better than her, for a total of 15 who are better? And a 38 year old Branagh is better than Hughes? Nice job attacking her and not even addressing the main point I made in my post, which was to dispute that Pavan is "the best player in the world." Just because Pavan is, in your narrow-minded opinion, the best blocker in the world does not make her the best player in the world - not even close. Nice try though - its cool how you trash an up and coming young lady like Sara Hughes and still not provide a single argument in support of your oft-quoted statement that Pavan is now the best player in the world. I get that you went to an FIVB event so you are now an authority on all things FIVB and Sarah Pavan - good for you. However, here's the scoreboard - 1 win in 46 FIVB tournaments. Got absolutely schooled by the Lindquists. Predicted finish in Huntington - winning the tournament. Actual finish - can't even get out of the quali. Nuff said? Probably not, but again, let's hear more trashing of all things AVP, Guest2. You rock.
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Post by guest2 on Aug 15, 2017 3:35:29 GMT -5
So most fans agree that the product stinks? Do you have any idea how many people attend and enjoy these events but who don't happen to be among the core group of posters on Volleytalk? I guess you have personally surveyed the thousands of fans at Seattle, New York, Hermosa, etc. to jump to your baseless statement that "most fans agree that the product stinks?" So how many AVP's have you been to this year? 3 here, and will be a total of 5 by the end of the season, and they are not only awesome to attend and watch in person, but the entire environment and ambience surrounding them is getting better and better each year. Just because you happen to think that all of the players suck This is not what I think, it is objective fact. We have one and maybe two players better than anyone in Brazil's top 8 or the World's Top 20 and that is unprecedented in the history of US women's volleyball. In 2008/2000 our top 5 teams were:
Kerri/Misty Nicole/EY April/Jen Nettie/JJJ Rachel/Tyra
Every one of those teams won an FIVB. Of our current teams, none have. Of our current top 10 players, only one has an FIVB win (April) and she is on the downside of her career. The current product is not just weak, its weaker than it has ever been in the history of US women's beach volleyball. Thats not an attack or an argument, thats a fact.
, that none of the matches are worth watching, and that the level of play is simply awful does not make it so. In fact, it pretty much makes you a bigger idiot than you were when you made all of your groundless statements about male coaches never being allowed to coach females because they can't stop themselves from sexually harassing them. Except for one thing - your posts now are even more condescending and negative. Who are you to simply cast a huge net over an entire group of players and say that they all stink, and that none of their matches are even worth watching? It must be awesome being you and being so awesome!!! If you have nothing at all positive to say about the AVP, here is an idea - why don't you just keep your amazingly judgmental and negative thoughts to yourself? Why the childish personal attacks? Here is an idea, why don't you keep your naive midwestern boosterism to yourself. The AVP and the US women's field are not my children and I have no responsibility to praise them when they don't deserve it. Way to also spend an entire post outlining who, in your opinion, is better than Sara Hughes. All 4 Brazilian defenders? 9 defenders in a totally different class right now, with another 6 better than her, for a total of 15 who are better? And a 38 year old Branagh is better than Hughes? Nice job attacking her and not even addressing the main point I made in my post, which was to dispute that Pavan is "the best player in the world." You said you don't believe Pavan is the best player in the world. You also said you believe Hughes is better than Pavan. Any sane person looks at that and says, "he clearly isn't capable of judging volleyball players, hence the long explanation for why your point vis a vis Hughes was grossly innacurate. Also when did it become taboo to say "Player A is better than Player B" why is that an attack?Just because Pavan is, in your narrow-minded opinion, the best blocker in the world does not make her the best player in the world - not even close. Why does thinking Pavan is the best blocker in the world "narrow-minded?" Thats just another silly personal attack and it makes no sense. Do narrow minded people tend to evaluate Sarah irrationally? Is there some other blocker I am not considering? The pool of candidates for best blocker is very small, Joanna and Kira are basically the two others in the conversation now that Kerri is out. Nice try though - its cool how you trash an up and coming young lady like Sara Hughes and still not provide a single argument in support of your oft-quoted statement that Pavan is now the best player in the world. I didn't trash Sara Hughes. I said she was the future of American volleyball. Saying Sara is not as good as better players is not an attack. I'm not sure what you find offensive about it. Which of those players do you feel Sara and her career high 5th is better than? Do you think Sara Hughes is in the same class as Larissa/April/Ludwig/Duda? If you do then you are an idiot and if you don't you are "attacking" her the same way I am I get that you went to an FIVB event so you are now an authority on all things FIVB and Sarah Pavan - good for you. However, here's the scoreboard - 1 win in 46 FIVB tournaments. Got absolutely schooled by the Lindquists. Predicted finish in Huntington - winning the tournament. Actual finish - can't even get out of the quali. Nuff said? Probably not, but again, let's hear more trashing of all things AVP, Guest2. You rock. Answers above. with one exception I am not sure why you are bashing Pavan. She had one loss to a bad team while playing with a lousy partner (unfortunately thats what Salgado is these days). Karch/Steffes in the midst of the best stretch of volleyball ever played lost to Hanneman/Cardenas - the 4th best East Coast qualifier team at the time, does that mean their 13 straight wins and dominance of Smith/Stoklos and the rest of the world's best don't matter?
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Post by guest2 on Aug 15, 2017 4:25:42 GMT -5
To address the larger point of AVP Next, the idea behind it is nice, but like AVP Young Guns etc. the results were predictable. These players aren't aspiring pros, they are mostly good regional players who got points against non-pro level competition.
Pri Lima has played every qualifier this year, has spent her money to travel to NY, Austin, Seattle. She is a good player who can occasionally pull an upset. Does she deserve a spot less than a 37 year old playing with a 41 year old who have barely played 6 qualifiers total in their lives?
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Post by JB Southpaw on Aug 15, 2017 6:58:25 GMT -5
You know, Guest and others, this thread is about the MBO women's side, lets refrain from bashing them on just this one thread. That isn't what this is about. You guys didn't want to talk women's vball, so don't come in here and bash at minimum.
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Post by JB Southpaw on Aug 15, 2017 7:10:04 GMT -5
To address the larger point of AVP Next, the idea behind it is nice, but like AVP Young Guns etc. the results were predictable. These players aren't aspiring pros, they are mostly good regional players who got points against non-pro level competition. Pri Lima has played every qualifier this year, has spent her money to travel to NY, Austin, Seattle. She is a good player who can occasionally pull an upset. Does she deserve a spot less than a 37 year old playing with a 41 year old who have barely played 6 qualifiers total in their lives? She could have also played in the AVPNEXT tournaments in FL. Quite a few of these WC players did both. Guest2, as an east coast guy, I can't believe you are anti-AVPNext. Phil and Nick got on the tour via the "Young Guns" exemption. Let's give this a couple years and see where it goes. In Florida, I'd say this still isn't taken seriously. Florida is lumped in the southeast zone, so the team that won on the women's side took a 13th in the only FL event they played. Not sure the FL players are committed when teams can bypass the state competition altogether.
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Post by guest2 on Aug 15, 2017 7:26:09 GMT -5
You know, Guest and others, this thread is about the MBO women's side, lets refrain from bashing them on just this one thread. That isn't what this is about. You guys didn't want to talk women's vball, so don't come in here and bash at minimum. All of my posts were about women's volleyball and the MBO, except where I answered a specific point made by someone else
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goudey
Banned
"I sorta get away with things like that." —Donald Trump
Posts: 1,344
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Post by goudey on Aug 15, 2017 7:38:12 GMT -5
Pavan > Fernanda
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Post by guest2 on Aug 15, 2017 7:48:01 GMT -5
To address the larger point of AVP Next, the idea behind it is nice, but like AVP Young Guns etc. the results were predictable. These players aren't aspiring pros, they are mostly good regional players who got points against non-pro level competition. Pri Lima has played every qualifier this year, has spent her money to travel to NY, Austin, Seattle. She is a good player who can occasionally pull an upset. Does she deserve a spot less than a 37 year old playing with a 41 year old who have barely played 6 qualifiers total in their lives? She could have also played in the AVPNEXT tournaments in FL. Quite a few of these WC players did both. Guest2, as an east coast guy, I can't believe you are anti-AVPNext. Phil and Nick got on the tour via the "Young Guns" exemption. Let's give this a couple years and see where it goes. In Florida, I'd say this still isn't taken seriously. Florida is lumped in the southeast zone, so the team that won on the women's side took a 13th in the only FL event they played. Not sure the FL players are committed when teams can bypass the state competition altogether. Its been a couple years. In theory its a great idea, but it doesn't work. Take a look at the NE or SE region. In the NE, the no.3 ranked team is Jim Nichols. He's 50 years old. The rest of the top 10 seems to be his kids Its like when Ihor used to win Young Guns. In the SE I barely recognize most of those names. Forniciari and Thompson? Thats the best FL has to offer?
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Post by JB Southpaw on Aug 15, 2017 8:10:53 GMT -5
The biggest thing left is where Kelly and Sarah will be seeded.
Currently, they have more points than all the WC teams, so the worst the can be seeded is 24.
The top 10 teams in the Q all have more points than them. The question becomes, are their any upsets in the top 8 of the Q? (there are going to have to be 2 upsets in the 8,9 and 7,10 seed brackets)
If they are seeded 24 seed, they'll meet the #1 seed before the winner's semis (3rd round).
I don't see any teams outside the 10 team in the Q that can pull an upset.
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Post by JB Southpaw on Aug 15, 2017 8:17:28 GMT -5
She could have also played in the AVPNEXT tournaments in FL. Quite a few of these WC players did both. Guest2, as an east coast guy, I can't believe you are anti-AVPNext. Phil and Nick got on the tour via the "Young Guns" exemption. Let's give this a couple years and see where it goes. In Florida, I'd say this still isn't taken seriously. Florida is lumped in the southeast zone, so the team that won on the women's side took a 13th in the only FL event they played. Not sure the FL players are committed when teams can bypass the state competition altogether. Its been a couple years. In theory its a great idea, but it doesn't work. Take a look at the NE or SE region. In the NE, the no.3 ranked team is Jim Nichols. He's 50 years old. The rest of the top 10 seems to be his kids Its like when Ihor used to win Young Guns. In the SE I barely recognize most of those names. Forniciari and Thompson? Thats the best FL has to offer? Forniciari and Thompson aren't FL. That is my only issue. They made these huge regions, and it depends on who gets to run the AVPNEXT tournaments and how many they run These guys played 4 in NC, 1 in Nashville, and 2 (of 3) in the panhandle of FL. there were only 3 in the rest of Florida. 500+ miles away.
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Post by guest2 on Aug 15, 2017 8:22:18 GMT -5
Its been a couple years. In theory its a great idea, but it doesn't work. Take a look at the NE or SE region. In the NE, the no.3 ranked team is Jim Nichols. He's 50 years old. The rest of the top 10 seems to be his kids Its like when Ihor used to win Young Guns. In the SE I barely recognize most of those names. Forniciari and Thompson? Thats the best FL has to offer? Forniciari and Thompson aren't FL. That is my only issue. They made these huge regions, and it depends on who gets to run the AVPNEXT tournaments and how many they run These guys played 4 in NC, 1 in Nashville, and 2 (of 3) in the panhandle of FL. there were only 3 in the rest of Florida. 500+ miles away. Sure that was my point (regarding FL) Marc used to play VA Beach a little when I was there but so long ago, can't definitively say much
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Post by guest2 on Aug 15, 2017 8:25:35 GMT -5
The biggest thing left is where Kelly and Sarah will be seeded. Currently, they have more points than all the WC teams, so the worst the can be seeded is 24. The top 10 teams in the Q all have more points than them. The question becomes, are their any upsets in the top 8 of the Q? (there are going to have to be 2 upsets in the 8,9 and 7,10 seed brackets) If they are seeded 24 seed, they'll meet the #1 seed before the winner's semis (3rd round). I don't see any teams outside the 10 team in the Q that can pull an upset. Maybe Hildreth? Didnt she do well in a few NVLs?
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Post by JB Southpaw on Aug 15, 2017 8:31:22 GMT -5
The biggest thing left is where Kelly and Sarah will be seeded. Currently, they have more points than all the WC teams, so the worst the can be seeded is 24. The top 10 teams in the Q all have more points than them. The question becomes, are their any upsets in the top 8 of the Q? (there are going to have to be 2 upsets in the 8,9 and 7,10 seed brackets) If they are seeded 24 seed, they'll meet the #1 seed before the winner's semis (3rd round). I don't see any teams outside the 10 team in the Q that can pull an upset. Maybe Hildreth? Didnt she do well in a few NVLs? She's playing with an 18 yo, going to be tough in that MB sand.
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